Transcript

Am I Enmeshed With My Mom? Signs of Mother-Son Enmeshment & What To Do

From What Your Therapist Thinks · Episode page · Watch on YouTube

· 56 min · 9,849 words · 173 timestamped sections

This is the full, timestamped transcript of "Am I Enmeshed With My Mom? Signs of Mother-Son Enmeshment & What To Do", an episode of What Your Therapist Thinks published September 24, 2025 (56 min, about 9,849 words). It mentions 21 people, works and ideas, including Enmeshment, Jason (alias used by catfish as 'Beth's brother'), Healthy differentiation, Collectivism, Mary Beth Somich.

What this episode is about

This content explores the concept of enmeshment in mother-son relationships, highlighting signs of unhealthy dependency and the importance of establishing boundaries to foster honest and compassionate interactions. Licensed therapist Mary Beth Somich provides insights on recognizing enmeshment dynamics, emphasizing that boundaries should originate from the child to promote personal growth and healthier familial connections.

Key takeaways

  • Boundaries: not just walls, but bridges to healthier relationships and marital bliss.
  • Enmeshment: it's not just therapy jargon; it's family spaghetti when boundaries go missing.
  • Healthy differentiation: teenagers' rebellion rebranded as crucial self-discovery.
  • Parents' dreams vs child realities: it's the plot twist nobody sees coming.
  • Enmeshment's secret ingredient? Emotionally withdrawn dads setting mothers adrift.

What is discussed, and when

  1. – 5:00: Jason (alias used by catfish as 'Beth's brother'), Healthy differentiation, Mary Beth Somich, Christy Plantinga
  2. – 10:00: Healthy differentiation
  3. – 15:00: Healthy differentiation
  4. – 20:00: Parent identity development model
  5. – 25:00: Jason (alias used by catfish as 'Beth's brother')
  6. – 35:00: Boundary Setting Blueprint, Healthy differentiation
  7. – 40:00: Jason (alias used by catfish as 'Beth's brother'), Boundary Setting Blueprint
  8. – 45:00: Emotional maturity, Healthy differentiation
  9. – 50:00: Jason (alias used by catfish as 'Beth's brother'), Rejection sensitivity, When He's Married to Mom
  10. – 55:00: Jason (alias used by catfish as 'Beth's brother')
  11. – 55:44: Jason (alias used by catfish as 'Beth's brother'), yourjourneythrough.com

Notable quotes from "Am I Enmeshed With My Mom? Signs of Mother-Son Enmeshment & What To Do"

  • Somatic therapist. And I'm Christy Plantinga. And I've been in a lot of therapy. We are so happy to have Mary Beth Somich on the show. Today we are talking about mother and son…
    about Jason (alias used by catfish as 'Beth's brother') · at
  • Had babies, these are life circumstances that really bring out insh dynamics and if that healthy differentiation doesn't happen in adolescence developmentally, it sets them up…
    about Healthy differentiation · at
  • What happens is there's this thing called the parent identity development model. And so when someone when mom becomes pregnant let's say and this is true for dads too. they fit into the parent identity development.
    about Parent identity development model · at
  • I call it the boundary setting blueprint. So there's three steps. I try to make it as simple as possible because honestly boundaries are received better when they're short, clear, and concise.
    about Boundary Setting Blueprint · at
  • Willing or able to do that and other people are. Yeah, it's a it's emotional maturity, too. And you'll see that in meshed families when the parent is doing that role reversal…
    about Emotional maturity · at
  • Yeah. There she could be experiencing rejection sensitivity. Like that's a symptom of some other things. It's like there's a lot that or he could just not like her like you said. So, yeah. Which I hate saying, but it's like.
    about Rejection sensitivity · at

Who and what is mentioned in this episode?

People

  • Jason (alias used by catfish as 'Beth's brother') — Person · 10 mentions · first at
  • Mary Beth Somich — Person · 2 mentions · first at
    Somatic therapist. And I'm Christy Plantinga. And I've been in a lot of therapy. We are so happy to have Mary Beth Somich on the show. Today we are talking about mother and son…
  • Felicia Keller Bole — Person · 1 mention · first at
    I'm Felicia Keller Bole, licensed somatic therapist. And I'm Christy Plantinga. And I've been in a lot of therapy. We are so happy to have Mary Beth Somich on the show. Today we are.
  • Christy Plantinga — Person · 1 mention · first at
    I'm Felicia Keller Bole, licensed somatic therapist. And I'm Christy Plantinga. And I've been in a lot of therapy. We are so happy to have Mary Beth Somich on the show. Today we are talking about mother and son and.

Books & papers

  • When He's Married to Mom — Book · 1 mention · first at
    And the son. So, a lot of comments are saying, Yeah, like this sounds exactly like me. And they recommend the When He's Married to Mom book. So, I think a lot of people relate…

Companies & orgs

Products & tech

Concepts & topics

Full transcript with timestamps

I'm over here like, "Get out." Like, I'm just being honest. Boundaries are compassionate. They help preserve your relationships rather than destroy them through the development of resentment.

What's great about boundaries, it just makes the relationship more honest? And wouldn't you as a parent at the end of the day really want that honest relationship with them? A big piece of advice that I have is that the boundary has to come from the child cuz there will be moments where you do have to choose. That sucks, but it's part of growing up. It's part of being a human. One thing that people really fail to notice and understand. Welcome to What Your Therapist Thinks. I'm Felicia Keller Bole, licensed somatic therapist. And I'm Christy Plantinga. And I've been in a lot of therapy. We are so happy to have Mary Beth Somich on the show. Today we are talking about mother and son and meshment. Anytime the in-laws are involved in stuff, the Reddit the Reddit post gets spicy understandably.

So, I think we'll have some fun today going over that. But before we dive in, a little intro on Mary Beth. Mary Beth Somich is a licensed clinical mental health counselor with 10 years of experience providing therapy to children, teens, adults, and families. Mary Beth specializes in family dynamic work inshment boundaries anxiety transitions, and trauma. Mary owns a group practice called Your Journey Through in Raleigh, North Carolina. Mary Beth, welcome to the show.

Thank you. Thanks for having me. Yes. So excited again to get into this topic. Maybe more people will recognize. Again, this is focusing on the mother son dynamic, but I think a lot of people can maybe relate to some of the stuff that comes up and maybe they'll see it in their own

relationship. But my understanding of this topic based just on the nature of how people are searching more so it is a significant other asking about this relationship as opposed to and I did find one that I wanted to go over about the son themselves

talking about his experience as well. Um but yeah I think that was kind of the angle that I was just noticing online. So, oh definitely. That's the most common inquiry that I receive these days because I've kind of created a specialization in inshment and it's typically wives reaching out of wives of sons who are enshed with their moms.

Yeah, I've been seeing that online. But before we get into some of the Reddit posts that I found, I do want to get just kind of some definitions down. One of the things that we are trying to do in this podcast is debunk some of like the pop psychology kind of stuff. You know, things like narcissism, you're toxic, stuff like that. Really getting a professional's opinion on this on this stuff? I think enshment is kind of less commonly referred to in pop psychology, but can you please explain to us what is enshment? Yeah, a lot of people have never heard this term. It's definitely therapy speak. However, the way that I like to describe it most simply is it's a family system that's lacking boundaries. So, there's just a lack of that individuation differentiation that typically happens in adolescence. I actually started out as a teen therapist and I noticed over time some of my clients because I've been doing this for

10 years as they grew up as they got engaged, started dating, got married, had babies, these are life circumstances that really bring out insh dynamics and if that healthy differentiation doesn't happen in adolescence developmentally, it sets them up for inshment. So is it fair to say that if inshment is sort of like one side of the spectrum then healthy differentiation is sort of the other side of the spectrum.

Yes. And then I guess if that was like the virtuous mean then like the other extreme of that would be like totally disconnected isolated completely independent.

Yeah. Yeah sense. For the non- therapist in the room what is healthy differentiation?

Yeah. So in adolescence is when it should developmentally occur and it's when a teen separates from their family in terms of individuating.

So they might say my family does things this way but that doesn't fit right for me. I really resonate with this instead.

What happens is there's this thing called the parent identity development model. And so when someone when mom becomes pregnant let's say and this is true for dads too. they fit into the parent identity development model. But when we learn that we're pregnant, we kind of create this picture in our mind of the child, right? Oh, maybe my child will have blonde hair or they'll be really good at soccer or they'll be heterosexual or they'll be Republican, right? Like there's a lot of like identity markers that we think about or assume even unconsciously.

And then we bring this little life into the world. And guess what? They don't fit all those boxes.

They're not the next messy, which my husband is like counting on. Speaking of healthy differentiation.

Yeah. Yeah. So there that weaves into inshment and healthy differentiation because the parent might be really stuck on, oh, my child needs to be this way and have trouble accepting who the child is instead. And then there's more control over molding them into who they really need them to be. But I also don't want to overlook this deeply relational component of inshment as well. One thing that people really fail to notice and understand, they always blame mom for the mother son inshment. They're like, "She's the problem. She won't take her claws out of him. She's overly reliant on him." and we're focusing on mom because there are a lot of problematic behaviors coming from the mother. What many people don't understand is that typically in meshment arises when a mother is not getting her emotional needs met from her partner.

And what I see a lot in heterosexual couples is the dad or the father has really retreated emotionally and is not giving to the relationship emotionally. And so mom is getting those emotional needs met through her children,

specifically sons, even more than daughters. Why do you think that is? You know, that's a good question. The the maybe the lack from the male and then the reliance on the male, like it could be a sex and gender component. It very well could be.

There's also kind of this like cultural and who knows it's chicken or the egg, right? Is it biology? Is it sex and gender or is it culture? But you'll see all this cultural jargon about like mommy's little boyfriend or best friend or mama's boy and I'm a boy mom and a lot of that lending to some unhealthy attachment patterns.

Right. And there are also some cultures where I think this is very normed, right? If you come from Italian heritage, this might be more noticeable or maybe like Mexican heritage. Like there are some cultures where this really deep connection, really strong connection between a mother and a son is like the norm.

I'm really glad that you brought up culture because there are specific cultures where inshment is more common.

Um I see it a ton in Catholic families, Jewish families, and Indian families. Those are a lot of the common cultures where I'll get referral requests from.

Yeah, it's interesting and I think that's what makes it tough when that sort of thing is normalized or even when you are in that kind of enshment relationship. It's often rewarded in a way because it feels really good to make your parent happy with you,

you know, but then at the end of the day, and we'll get into this in some of the Reddit posts, it can be very destructive for other relationships in in your life as well.

Yeah. Right. There's a few phrases that stick out to me, too, when we talk about inshment. Like, we're just so so close. We're like the closest family. we do everything together or family is everything. Or another big one to look out for is like

behavioral patterns that don't really make sense to people outside the family but inside the family we say well that's just the way it is and how it's always been and so we're going to keep doing it that way

even if it doesn't make sense because it's serving someone's needs usually the mothers.

Do you have an example of this just to make it more real? like what is something you've seen in your work as a therapist where you're like this is so normal for this family but it is very confusing to everyone else.

Sure. I mean a classic one that comes up time after time is you know we have to spend Christmas with my family, right? There's just no other option. Like this is what we do. We're the closest family. We spend Christmas together. I can't go anywhere else for Christmas. It's always been this way. I've never spent a Christmas away from my family. And then there comes a Christmas where maybe they have this. Let's say that's the husband because we're going with mother son and meshment right now. And then the wife is like, but what about my family? What if I want to spend a holiday like Christmas with my family? Or they have kids and they're like, it makes the most sense to stay at home and have Christmas here rather than travel across the country to your family. I will say there aren't a lot of inshed families that live across the country from each other. However, it's it does

it makes a lot of sense. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's a little harder to be inshed if you're

Yes. have states between you, right? So, holidays are a big point of contention in inshed families.

I'm guessing this also comes up in cross-cultural relationships, right? If two people are not from the same background and maybe one person's background is more collectivist, they come from a family that has those really deep strong connections and they're partnered with somebody who comes from a culture that is more independent. And I could see there being misunderstandings and clashes there where one person's like, I just truly don't get it. Like why would you have to do this? And the other person is equally like, how could you not understand this? Of course I have to be with my family on the holidays. And just I think also as a therapist that's something that we're always having to look at our own biases and our own culture when we're working with clients and check like

what are the norms that I'm holding for myself and is that actually relevant to this client. So we're having to do that couples are having to consider that with each other or not. Right. And that can probably lead to a lot of conflict.

Yeah. And I want to say you can come from a collectivist culture and still be healthily differentiated. Right. Absolutely.

So that can one partner from a collectivist culture, one partner from more of an individualist culture

can exist and work and compromise and be great and there may be no inshment in that dynamic. It's just a difference. But the the key marker of inshment is that lack of healthy differentiation, lack of healthy self and lack of healthy relationship between

the two, the parent and child or parents and child. Interesting. When we think about obviously an unshment dynamic can happen outside of family too with you know friendships and you know all sorts of different ways.

Is there anything that other than maybe some of the cultural things we've discussed

that's unique to the mother son dynamic with with enshment? I would say maybe role reversal like the son acting more like a partner or a caretaker rather than a child.

I mean that can be I guess parent daughter too. I see that a lot as well. I think a lot of daughters become like therapists

often to their mothers or their parents. What are you trying to say? Yeah. Yeah. It's honestly most of us like people in the therapy world were at one point therapist to a parent.

I see that a lot. Yeah. Let's see. Guilt. I I I think of like guilt for independence, but that can come up in friendships, too. If someone's really codependent, they might guilt you for having

some intrusion on your autonomy, even um wanting to be like deeply involved in decision-m. There's a lot of similar themes I would say but maybe that role reversal in the parent child dynamic

that makes a lot of sense and I have noticed I think a lot of times and again this is just based on my limited research but a lot of times the mother is a single parent

as well. Um, and I think that definitely leads to, you know, just wanting more of that energy and that kind of, you know, very, again, a lot of this stuff is is tough because we're generalizing with a lot of this, but maybe more of that kind of traditional male caretaker like you've been saying with the son and especially if you know it's a single parent just, you know, wanting that, you know, which I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting it,

but to then kind of force that on your child that's probably yeah it's inappropriate and it's unfair to the child too

and I will go along with that generalization I don't often see inshment in families where there's a really healthy couple dynamic mom and dad

it's usually dad's absent emotionally or physically or single mom and there is that overdependence over reliance on the child to meet the needs Obviously, in meshment is bad. It's not a good thing. But maybe how can someone recognize this going on in their own relationship? And maybe talking about the bad parts of it. I definitely think that I personally have been in some of these dynamics and like I was saying before, it can feel really good cuz you're the good guy. You're reliable. Like, oh, I'm taking care of you. It's very rewarding.

in many ways, but what are the downsides of being in a dynamic like this? Yeah, people really struggle with healthy adult relationships outside of their family

in this context. So, like I said before, it's usually wives reaching out to me and saying like, I can't handle this anymore. Like, my mother-in-law is at my house every day. She's trying to come over constantly. She's like texting my husband non-stop asking him for things. Like

there's just so many symptoms and usually it's the partner of the inshed child that notices this is not healthy. This is not serving to our family dynamic and it really prevents the adult inshed child from creating their own nuclear family. They're so stuck in their family of origin that they don't make that transition to becoming in this case husband, father. They're still stuck in the role of son.

And then it can continue to perpetuate in a way, right? Because it's like then they're not as engaged in their primary relationship with their partner and that other parent might go seek some more support from one of her children. It's like I could see how inshment can just kind of get passed down from generation to generation in this way.

Exactly. It's usually multigenerational. Like a lot of families I work with will present me this dynamic and then I'll learn, oh well grandma lived with us when I was growing up. Like the partner might say that and I'm like well that makes sense, right? So there's a lot that just patterning multigenerationally too,

right? And of course, it's not always the case that folks can't live multi-generationally, right, and not be imshed. To your point earlier about being from a collectivist culture is not synonymous with having inshed relationships between parents and children.

Totally. Um, it's really not about being connected or being from this culture, that culture. It's about maybe like the harm that's being caused, the ability to to make independent decisions, the ability to connect with your partner and with your own children and like really value that

and prioritize that. I would say like the most common symptoms are emotional over reliance, right? Feeling responsible for a parent's happiness or emotional stability and then acting accordingly. And then that role reversal that we talked about, right? needing a son acting more like a partner and that's not an appropriate role. Um

yeah, guilt for boundaries or autonomy or independence and then that difficulty with establishing other relationships that are supportive.

Yeah, I imagine the boundaries thing is really big cuz if you're not used to having them, why would you have them in any other relationship? Unless of the boundary is more like, oh, I have to like go see my mom right now

boundary. I'm not going to the movies tonight with you. But that's more kind of like consequential rather than I'm choosing to set this because it's best for me kind of thing.

Yeah. One of the primary things that I I said like you know uh the partner will come to me often but sometimes the child does the child will recognize like this is all-consuming. It's not healthy.

It's harming my relationships etc. And one of the things that I first do with them is ask them like, "What are your wants and needs?" And I swear nine out of 10en times, usually 10 out of 10 times, they have no idea what they're

Yeah. It's the hardest hardest question for them. They're like, "Well, I've never been able to choose my own wants and needs. They've been prescribed to me by my mom." So that is a big kind of come to Jesus moment for lack of better terms like

wow I don't know who I am outside of my parents wishes and that's why I mentioned the parent identity development model and how it integrates into this.

Thank you so much for those definitions. I think we should get into our Reddit posts. This is in the of course the subreddit in-laws. Is there any hope in a relationship with mom and meshed man? My four-year relationship has been hijacked by my boyfriend's enshed family. The inshment revealed itself over time. My mom and meshed man is in complete denial and is grooming his adult children to ensh. We live together and it has slowly sculpted our daily life. I truly give him 100% but still my needs are last at times ignored. Naturally, he doesn't see it this way and feels guilt that he doesn't see or do enough for his family.

The constant communication and involvement all day long with entire family and almost daily visits aren't enough. No boundaries or privacy. I feel stalked. They do not allow him to fully commit to me or any of his past relationships. Actually, not one of them, including siblings, has successful relationships because they do not allow it of each other. Not allowing each other to grow and be the best they can be. as if they should only be loyal to each other. His mother manipulates all of them every single day, and they see it as normal. The word in meshment is new to me, but now makes total sense. Is it possible for him to ever see what this does to him, me, and us, his adult children. He only gets mad when I try to explain as if I'm the villain for not participating in his codependent and meshed family. It has completely wrecked my self-worth, not understanding and trying to navigate through this

craziness. I'm at a loss. I'm over here like, get out. Like, I'm just being honest. I'm like, just get get move out. Get out. Like, Mary Beth, I mean, this is your thing. So, I really want to hear what you have to say.

Giving the stereotypical breakup Reddit advice. I mean, okay. Wait, you're nodding too, Mary Beth? So, are we?

So, I was just nodding because I'm not a coup's counselor because I don't have the patience to do couples counseling. I think I would be someone who's like, "You guys are just not good together." Um, not specifically in this case, but I love the family dynamic work. That feels much different to me.

Yeah. I think that she's going to have a real challenge with this if he is in such denial and so resistant and villainizing her for even having a discussion about it. Like he is deeply entrenched in inshment. And you know, a partner has to at least be curious. If there's no curiosity,

it's really hard to move that needle. And when there's no curiosity, she's kind of left with one choice, and that's her own boundaries around it. Like,

does she choose not to engage with his family? Does she choose not to be home when they come over? And that's a lot of work. It sounds really

It sounds like it's already a lot of work. Yes, exactly. I want to know what are the comments saying? Do they agree with us or is there anyone who's like, I don't know, have you tried? Like so my specialty in my practice, one of them was codependency. And I feel like one of the things I would say to my clients again and again is like this is the person you're with, right? Like you can't change your partner. And so you may be right that their behaviors are ridiculous and not okay, but you also don't get to choose their behaviors. So at a certain point if you've tried again and again and again to have the conversation to initiate change and they are just not willing if you can't be okay with who they are then

you may be at the end of the relationship. So that's my take. I want to know like are other people saying get out? Do they have ideas of what to try next? What's interesting is a lot of the comments are like I'm in this same situation too. Let me know. So definitely less less advice. There has been a you know you need to cut your losses. It's only been four years. Um

four years is a long time to be doing this. I think four years is a long time too. I mean the longer you're with someone obviously the more to use this word in a different way in meshed your life becomes um with the other person. But yeah I think there's just a lot of empathy from other people.

A lot of them are just saying end it leave runner. And one person was not very nice and said, "I'm embarrassed for you." So

that's not very nice. Yeah. Yeah. What is What is there to be embarrassed about? I mean, it's like you're just

I think some people go on Reddit just to troll other people just to not be very nice, but we ignore those.

Yeah. Well, success. That's super mean. And there's my partner says, "Don't don't feed the trolls. Just don't."

Yeah. I think this person was like super kind and compassionate in how they described the scenario. They weren't like they're evil. Like granted, they're obviously upset and they like didn't always use like the most neutral terms, but it seemed to me like they went out of their way to really attempt to describe objectively what's going on and not just be like, "These people are terrible." Like they were just like, "This is what's going on." I really appreciated that. It makes me think that this person has really tried to see it from their partner's perspective, but is really just at the end of their rope and, you know, can't really take living this way anymore.

Yeah, we've mostly been focusing on this one-on-one relationship, but sounds like the whole family,

the whole family is involved in this, then it's just you versus this whole It's always Yeah, I mean, she used the word cult,

you know? I think she did this kind of like cultlike mentality. I mean, one person

like nobody's getting out, nobody's leaving, no one gets a new family or a relationship. Yeah, that stuck out to me, too. The fact that like none of the siblings are in partnerships is like that's pretty strong signal that like there's something going on in this family. Uh they're all kind of drinking the Kool-Aid.

Yeah. To use cult analogies. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Hey Beth, do you see this where it's like a whole family

a lot? Yeah, I get fed in meshment content often because it's my she's on in meshment talk.

Yeah, basically it's like my algorithm now. So there was a woman who had just had a baby and she decided I don't want any visitors at the hospital. Well, how do you think that went over with her in meshed in-laws, right? They like want to be in the room watching you.

They're like delivering the baby. ideally. Yes. Yeah. Literally. And this is a very common one that comes up in in mesh families around birth. But

I really noticed and acknowledged like she was sharing about how her sister-in-law was mad about her boundaries because the in-laws had been in her delivery room shortly after.

And I was like, well, clearly she wasn't okay with that, but she was forced into it by these like traditions and this is just how we do it. And now she's resentful and she's projecting that resentment onto her sister-in-law saying like, "Well, you have to fall in line, too."

Yes. Literally hazing. And it's just another layer of that like, "Well, this is how we do things. You have to do it. Fall in line. You can't set boundaries. It's not okay." So, yeah, I it can be kind of like a whole team mentality against someone. It's like team family X. If it's one person versus this whole group, so hard to hold your ground. Of course.

Yeah. Absolutely. Another piece of this is let's say you know the inshed son is ready to acknowledge the inshment. He sees how it's hurting his family and his partner and the establishment of his nuclear family and prioritization of them. There's a lot of unnamed grief in his experience

of finally setting boundaries and getting that backlash from your family who you really love and have always like been serving

consistently and getting that positive reinforcement and then all of a sudden it's so negative.

I see a lot of partners that are like distraught, deep in grief like I can't handle this level of hostility from my family

and that's a really hard place to be. So, I want to make sure that there's support for that, too, because they are really

stepping up and trying to differentiate and prioritize their their new family, their significant other and children. And

that makes so much sense that like if because it seems to me like the element that's consistent here is control, right? Like it seems like part of the goal of inshment is to control someone else's behaviors so that one person can feel good emotionally. It's like

it makes me right. They can feel secure. They can feel good emotionally. They're kind of looking for someone else to behave in a particular way in order for them to feel good. And so it's like if that's essentially been the coping strategy like I don't have to find other ways to feel good because I'm basically just counting on you to always do what I want you to do. And then you don't do that. Like, of course, I'm super upset. I probably don't have the skills to manage my own emotions because you've been my source of managing my emotions.

And now, now you're the enemy. You've taken away the thing that I've been relying on that's been keeping me steady, that's been keeping me okay. almost like the the love quote unquote has so much to do with control and is maybe not at its source a generous love. It's a very it's love with lots and lots of conditions.

And it makes sense that like that's not actually a very deep well of love at the end of the day. And if that gets challenged, it can really flip into like

controlling and villainizing. Villainizing. Yeah. Yeah. That's a really painful realization throughout this process. I have seen couples really come out on the other side of it and actually be able to reestablish healthy relationships with their in-laws because the goal here is not to sever the bond or the tie with your family. Like I really want to emphasize that because I see so much content on social media about like Yeah. the breakup.

Go no contact. Yes. Go no contact. Right. Yeah. And it's really to shift from overdependence to just a healthier connection with your parents so that it's not that controlling contingent love and it is more generous. So yeah, that's hard. A lot of in mesh families like there's this idea around them like we're special because we're so close and we do

special. We're like a special family and then that partner is going to ruin that specialness, right? and he's going to get punished for it. And so the wife of that partner needs to also be ready for that kind of backlash towards him.

Yeah. I'm God, just think about the weight of that, you know, that like you're responsible for this family falling apart when it's like, oh my gosh, I just want to do Christmas with someone else this year, you know?

Right. I still love you. Yeah. A big piece of advice that I have for couples in this situation too is that the boundary has to come from the child.

Yeah. Right. So the wife or the husband. Yeah. Yeah. The And that's a sign to me that the husband isn't ready. If he's telling his wife, well then you tell him you're not okay with it, right? And then they just are going to turn

and they're not a team, right? They're not a team. It's like the the primary allegiance is still to the family of origin and they haven't made the primary allegiance to their partner and of course like no one wants to be in the situation like obviously but there are times when there are differences and like a person does have to choose like where does my primary allegiance lie am I really coupling with that person and saying like you are my person

it's us first or am I like making a sort of halfway commitment to this but still at the end of the day it's always going to be them first cuz there will be moments where you do have to choose

and that sucks but it's just the reality of like diverging from it's part of growing up. It's part of being a human.

Definitely healthy differentiation. Oh, nice. She's she's catching on. I'm like I'll be the A student. I will remember all of these these stars.

You are you are such a good therapy A+ student. Yes, thank you. With my therapist, I'm like, am I your favorite?

But it's like, well, you're like, you can tell me. You can tell me. I won't tell anybody else,

right? I'm the worst. Um, but yes, this next example is about a the child who's in this this inshed relationship. And this is a question about boundaries. So, very much a how-to, which is always very very helpful. This is from the subreddit internet parents. How do I set boundaries with my emotionally inshed mother? Hi everyone, please help if you can. I am a 25year-old female. My mom is a 58-year-old female. I am seriously starting to lose it with my mother and fear that I'm going to lose more time of my life to this dynamic as it is taking a significant toll on me. For context, my mom is very attached to me and needy.

She is single and doesn't really have close friends. I'm also an only child. Thus, my mother depends on me as her emotional outlet. She's overly focused on me despite saying she has a full life, etc. I feel like she expects me to be her cheerleader and if I forget something, she will take it as rejection and say, "Why didn't you wish me luck on XYZ?" She constraining to constantly be on cheerleader mode. I wished her good luck. We spoke on the phone, but she expected me to text her that day. Anyways, stuff like this. The other day I tried to set boundaries and she said, "You hate me. You hate everyone. You're trying to drive a wedge between me just like your dad. You need to grow up." Stuff like that. And then she gives some more examples about how she, you know, was traveling for a couple months. Obviously, that sure didn't go well having that physical distance. So anyways, long story short,

how does this person start to set some boundaries in this in this relationship?

Get out. No, I'm kidding. No contact. No, I don't know that that's my advice, but yikes.

Yeah. Well, there's a few steps here. First, the awareness that this is happening and naming it, which I think this person, this child has already done just by finding this Reddit thread on inshment, right? like she is naming this is not healthy. This is in meshment

therapy to support her in really becoming equipped to set boundaries and also to deal with the fallout of those boundaries because it sounds like whenever she's already tried to set them, mom is villainizing her for doing so and really not responding well. So establishing a support system with a therapist and you know anyone else who can kind of empathize and support her through this transition in a healthy way. Transition to differentiation is what I'm referencing is definitely recommended. And then um as far as setting boundaries I think there's a way to do this that can help make them more successful sometimes. I have a freebie download on it and maybe I can send it to you guys to link in like show notes or something.

Absolutely. We will put that in the show notes. I call it the boundary setting blueprint. So there's three steps. I try to make it as simple as possible because honestly boundaries are received better when they're short, clear, and concise. We don't want to give like lengthy paragraph explanations of why we're doing something work. you're saying, Mary Beth, cuz that's been kind of like my

let me apologize 15 times and then I'll tell you my boundary. So that's not good.

That little like am like things to argue with in my experience. Is that right? Exactly. It's exactly what it does. Like let me counter whatever excuse you're giving me so I can make you do it again. Like we don't want to give that opportunity. So, it's called the boundary setting blueprint, and it's a three-step method. It's super simple, pretty clear and concise. It's kind of like a sandwich. So, you start with validation, and you say, so let's say the situation is mom wants to come over and cook dinner four nights a week for you and your wife. And you're like, "No, that's way too much. That my wife's not okay with that. I'm not okay with that.

That's not good for our family." And so what you're going to do is start with validation, step one, and say,"I really love that you've offered to cook dinner for us. That's supportive. Then boundary. However, it's not supportive four nights a week, right? That's our boundary. It's this is I can't do that four nights a week." However, then you come toward with step three of like, "What would be okay with you? What is a I don't want to call it a compromise, but what would work?" And then maybe you say we could do dinner with you on Thursdays, right? If you want to come over and cook on Thursdays, that would be supportive. So validation, boundary, and then come toward with something that is okay with you. I will say sometimes that third step is just not available, right? Like sometimes it's just a boundary and there isn't something to come toward with,

especially if it's like a hard no for you. I love that advice. I I love that there is not an explanation and I think sometimes someone might ask well why in my experience when it's when that question is being asked in that way and it's not coming from a place of genuine curiosity like oh I'm just curious like why I'm I'm open to whatever you have to say but I'm asking you because I want to hear what you say so I can then argue with what you just said right if that if that is the reason why someone is asking that question then in my experience it's best to just kind Repeat what I just said. It doesn't work for me or it doesn't work for us for you to come over every night. Yeah. Yeah. But why? Like I mean I'm making you food. Like that will me to make Yeah, you're welcome. I'm making you food. Yeah, mom. And I love that you care that you want to make us food. And like I said, that doesn't

work, but we would love for you to come over on Thursdays. Can you do that? Right. And it's just kind of like you stick with that plan because that person is not asking you because they are curious and just want to have a interesting conversation with you. They are asking because they are looking for ammunition and anything that they can argue with. Don't take the bait. Don't do it.

No. And I always want to reinforce like people that are not accepting of your boundaries, it just reinforces that you're validated in setting them or having to set them,

right? like take that as validation rather than guilt, right? So, it's almost a signal, hey, you're actually doing a good job right now, even though obviously the reaction isn't pleasant, but it's a good sign actually if you get push back.

Yeah. That the boundary was really needed. Yeah. And I feel like one of two things will happen here over time. like your parent will either over time decide that it is worth it to them to have a different kind of relationship with you and they will start to accommodate that more easily

or the relationship will actually deteriorate. That's like the choice you're making at a certain point. Is it worth it to me to go through the discomfort of upsetting my doing something that is going to upset my parent? Is it worth it to me to not really know how the relationship is going to change? Like I've gotten used to it being a certain way, but like it's definitely going to look different if I stick with these boundaries and just being willing to go through that journey. And the the sad truth is that in some cases parents do have really strong reactions and they're like, "You're dead to me." I mean, that is very extreme, but it does on occasion happen. But I think probably hopefully more often than not if you're consistent with your boundaries and you do what you're saying, Mary Beth, of like

expressing like the what's also true, which is you love and care about your parent and you do appreciate them

and like when they're like, "Oh, you're doing this cuz you hate me." And you can say like, "Actually, that's not true. I don't hate you. I love you and I would like for you to just come once a week instead of four times a week."

Yeah. Boundaries are compassionate. They help preserve your relationships rather than destroy them through the development of resentment. If she's coming four times a week, you're resentful. You're like, "Oh, she's coming again." Like, you're not enjoying her, right? If it's once a week and that's your boundary and that's your capacity, then you actually might enjoy her visit. And and isn't that what she wants to is it? Or does she

And then you find out, right? Exactly. And if you find out that that's the case, like she's not actually doing it because she loves you. She's doing it because

she needs you. She needs you to regulate her emotions. And of course, it's never just one or the other. We evolved to need each other and to need connection. But there's a difference between like again that healthy connection like healthy dependency and codependency and you know inshment and healthy differentiation. It's like how can you form a new kind of relationship with your parent where you can love each other in a way that actually feels good for both of you. And that's going to be a discovery process, right?

Yeah. Yeah. I also want to speak to equipping parents with this language that they may not have, right? Like sometimes it doesn't go well when you're like, I think we're inshed and I need boundaries, right? There's probably some push back.

What is this millennial nonsense? Like, right. Yeah. But you know what? I one of my like proudest moments as a therapist was a couple that came to me. They were in their mid60s and they were like, "Our son and his wife are telling us that they think that we're inshed and they are not inviting us to see our grandchild as much as we'd like to see them and that really hurts us and we would like to work on this with you and figure out how we can maybe be better parents or have a better relationship." And I was just like, "Oh my gosh, goals." Like, we're already on off to a great track. like and so I want to just share that that is possible. I have worked with adult parents, boomer parents

that um really value their child more than the dynamic that is serving them. Absolutely. I want to shout out my mom for this like she is a great example of this. We were definitely imshed when I was growing up and even into my young adulthood because she's a single parent. I'm the oldest of two girls. My mom worked really hard, was working all the time, and absolutely I was kind of like second mom kind of like spouse role in a way.

And as I got older, I started making more and more boundaries with her. And I remember my mom telling me like my mom had some friends who cared so much more about their principles that when their kids did things that they didn't like, they basically cut their children off. And my mom was like, "You are more important to me than like any choice you could make. Like having a relationship with you is more important to me than any choice you can make." And so over time, I've been able to change our relationship. And it's absolutely been hard at times, but she was actually willing to do things differently. And like

she's also made a bunch of other really incredible changes. I'm so proud of her. She's like proof that adults in their later years can absolutely transform themselves. So, I hope that's helpful. We now now we have two examples of of older adults and I'm sure there are many many more. So, comment on this episode if you've had experiences where your parents have been making changes with you if they've been willing to change the nature of their relationship with you. We'd love to have your hopeful stories cuz there are going to be people listening to this who are in the midst of maybe not having that experience and would love to hear about success stories. So share them in the comments.

Like there's no way my parents would do that. It's like maybe. But that's the thing. I think you know what's great about you know boundaries and other things like that. It just makes the relationship more honest. And I remember I said that to someone once where they're like, I could never, you know, talk to my dad about this. And I was like, that makes me kind of sad at the end of the day because you're not going to have that honest relationship with them. And wouldn't you as a parent at the end of the day really want that honest relationship with them? So,

yeah. And some parents do. And the the sad truth is some parents don't. You know, I think it takes a certain degree of like psychological like resiliency and like robustness to be able to do that. Like

you can't be so psychologically emotionally fragile that you can't change and update. So yeah, it's just like some people are not going to be willing or able to do that and other people are. Yeah, it's a

it's emotional maturity, too. And you'll see that in in meshed families when the parent is doing that role reversal thing of like, oh, I need to be taken care of and you're putting their child in the role of parent. Like, that's a sign of emotional immaturity because it's not appropriate. So,

like it just depends on, you know, the level of emotional maturity that where your parents are at, too.

All right, last post. I think this is our spiciest one and I'm very interested to hear what you both have to say. This is in the subreddit enshment trauma experience of mother imshed man projecting their resentment of mother onto their partner. I'd like to know if others here have experienced this, particularly women in relationships with mother imshed men. I am no longer with this person. But I find it helpful and healing to hear others who may have gone through a similar experience. More especially because at times I felt like I was growing crazy and feeling that my ex resented me in some ways for showing up as loving and kind. I often got the impression he was irritated by my presence alone, even over text or phone calls. A few months into us being together, he opened up about his overbearing relationship with his mother and how cold she would often act towards him if he did something she didn't like

or without her approval. Later on in our relationship, I began to feel at times like he hated me. He'd just ignore me so easily, get irritated if I suggested plans or a phone call, etc. I felt delusional because I asked myself what reasons I'd ever given him to treat me with such disdain, especially when I always ensured I showed up as caring and supportive. When there was ever any issues I wanted to discuss with him, I always made sure I let him know first off that I wasn't coming from a place of criticism, particularly when he had shared how critical his mother was of him at times. I'd sometimes gaslight myself into believing I was being paranoid or insecure. But looking back, I just know with certainty how I felt at times was very valid. It just felt like he'd ignore or avoid me instead of his mother. Is this resentment projection a thing? I don't hear a ton about inshment in this post. I hear a lot about their

relationship and communication dynamics. So, yes, it can be a thing, resentment, projection, but I need to know more about their dynamic and his dynamic with his mom to know if that's really what's going on. Or

I mean, it could be that she's more critical than she hears herself being, too. Like, that's a possibility. And we have to consider all possibilities, too.

So, yeah, I guess that would be my take. Yeah, I'm with you, Mary Beth. I don't feel like I heard enough to say like, "Yeah, totally in meshment." I'm I'm also just curious about like how these people managed to stay together. It kind of sounds like he just doesn't like her.

You know what I mean? Like it sounds like he doesn't like his girlfriend. So I'm like, how are

Yeah. What What happened? How did these people not break up? Like why how Yeah. How do we get here?

Yeah. There she could be experiencing rejection sensitivity. Like that's a symptom of some other things. It's like there's a lot that or he could just not like her like you said. So,

yeah. Which I hate saying, but it's like Yeah. If he doesn't like you and you're trying so hard, maybe be with somebody who likes you more.

Mhm. But what what do the comments say? So, I'm going to get into some of these comments, but I think what I'm getting from what you're saying is maybe this isn't the whole picture, which definitely happens obviously on Reddit because it's self-reporting, but also maybe this is more of a relationship thing between the couple than the mother and the son. So, a lot of comments are saying, "Yeah, like this sounds exactly like me." And they recommend the When He's Married to Mom book. So, I think a lot of people relate to this sort of thing, but again, maybe there's something else going on

in this in this kind of situation with like the projection. You know, Reddit has knocked it out of the park several times on this podcast, but I think this is one of those places where having an actual therapist will really, really make a difference. like well having a therapist always makes a difference but this is a place where Mary Beth and I were both like we don't have enough information here like we're not able to say like yes this is in meshment like this is where having a therapeutic relationship and being involved in that process could be really helpful Mary Beth what do you think I totally agree I think the people resonating with that experience are probably in in meshed relationship and resentment is a really common experience between the couple

when one partner is in meshed with their family so I can totally see a lot of overlap, but again, we need more information.

Yeah. And what's interesting is one man does kind of admit to this a little bit. So, he talks about his relationship with his mom who has borderline personality disorder. You know, obviously that's a very difficult relationship to maintain if that person isn't receiving treatment. But he says, "As you can imagine, there are a lot of mixed feelings with me and mom and not a little bit of resentment either. And there have been times in my marriage that a lot of those feelings were transferred to my wife at various points and for various reasons. In my case, and I'm sure it's different for everyone, there are specific triggers. When she does certain things that my mother used to do that made me feel taken advantage of. Typically, if I can name it, I can stop myself from acting out, but my wife says I'll still get pretty passive aggressive sometimes. I'm always trying to do better. Recently started

meditating and that seems to help. I feel a lot of compassion for this person. That seems really sweet. Like the work he's doing.

Yeah, I would agree. And also say that this is happening in couples with no inshment dynamics. Like there's that whole adage like you marry your

parent and they're going to do things that trigger you or remind you of things. Everyone comes from a parent dynamic and

it comes out in relationships and marriage sometimes. So yeah, it makes sense to me that we don't have quite enough information because really all we got from the boyfriend was that he described his mother as overbearing. M

that's that's what we got. So maybe full inshment, maybe not. And I think if someone describes their parent as overbearing, they're kind of aware that like I don't like this, you know?

Mhm. That's a good point. We would have to like really interrogate and assume a lot of things in order to like make a call. And so yeah, just just not possible to know. could be a situation and you know more in like the pop psychology side of things where oh it's because my mom is toxic or oh it's because my boyfriend was narcissistic or whatever. Could this be one of those situations where you're just trying to kind of make sense of something in your mind like how did this happen and maybe this person landed on enshment and again maybe it's absolutely going on but what do you think?

It totally could be. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I see that happen a lot, especially with a lot of psych terms being thrown around. My first thought was like, it sounds like this person doesn't like you very much and like, of course, that feels terrible. No one wants to acknowledge that, especially because she's really really trying, you know, she is

like obsessive feels too strong, but like she is trying very, very hard and seems like monitoring her own behaviors and feelings a lot. It must feel terrible to be putting in all of this work and trying so hard and then feeling like even when you're being kind, your partner's annoyed with you. So, it makes sense that, you know, you don't want to tell yourself, well, I think this person just doesn't like me. Let me go find a problem with this person and their mom, right? It may just be he's not that into you. You guys remember that book movie?

I remember the movie. Yeah. I frankly kind of loved it, you know, as a person who was dating and struggling in dating relationships and trying to figure it out. Like I think it was really helpful to hear like yeah, sometimes someone just doesn't like you that much, but like just go find someone else, you know, who does cuz there eventually you will,

right? So often when we're uncomfortable, we look for ways to label people so that we can kind of create a rationale for why we're having this painful experience. And sometimes sometimes that's true. Sometimes that's what's going on and sometimes it's just so we don't have to deal with the pain that this just sucks.

Yeah. So, Mary Beth, we love to just ask at the end what you really think about this topic speaking as yourself, not in in the therapy room. What do you really think about mother son and meshment?

I think it's a beast. It is so challenging and so difficult to go through as a partner and I hand it to the people who are ready to do the work and invest in the relationship and get hopefully to the other side even if the other side is not the ideal relationship but it is just setting harder boundaries because it can look really different but it is no small feat to navigate. um you're challenging a system that might be decades long in existence or more.

Yeah. So, I've seen it work though. I've seen people come out the other side really a lot stronger

from it both in their relationship like as a couple and with the family of origin too. So, there's hope.

There is hope. Hopefully soon our comments will be filled with stories of hope like we're asking. So comment on this episode. Share what you're going through. Share with friends who need to hear it. Maybe don't share with your partner who you think is a mess. Probably not the best.

Probably not the best first move, but comment with your own stories of hope or what you're going through right now. Thank you so much, Mary Beth. We really, really appreciate your expertise in all of this.

Yeah, thank you for having me. I'm glad to be here. And how can people find out about you and your practice? Yeah, they can go to yourjourneythrough.com. We have a contact form, an online booking, and you can also find me on Instagram at @youjourney through.

Questions about this episode

What is "Am I Enmeshed With My Mom? Signs of Mother-Son Enmeshment & What To Do" about?

This content explores the concept of enmeshment in mother-son relationships, highlighting signs of unhealthy dependency and the importance of establishing boundaries to foster honest and compassionate interactions. Licensed therapist Mary Beth Somich provides insights on recognizing enmeshment dynamics, emphasizing that boundaries should originate from the child to promote personal growth and…

What is mentioned in this What Your Therapist Thinks episode?

21 people, works and ideas are mentioned, including Enmeshment, Jason (alias used by catfish as 'Beth's brother'), Healthy differentiation, Collectivism, Mary Beth Somich, Parent identity development model. Each one on this page links to its own page with every episode that mentions it.

How long is "Am I Enmeshed With My Mom? Signs of Mother-Son Enmeshment & What To Do"?

The episode runs 56 min; the transcript is about 9,849 words in 173 timestamped sections.

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About this transcript: the episode's spoken words as captioned on YouTube, split into timestamped sections. Reclip.Me locates every person, work and idea in the text, keeps the time it is first named, and quotes the words around it verbatim. Last updated December 19, 2025.