Transcript

Why Do People Cheat? Understanding the Psychology of Infidelity

From What Your Therapist Thinks · Episode page · Watch on YouTube

· 1 h 1 min · 10,506 words · 144 timestamped sections

This is the full, timestamped transcript of "Why Do People Cheat? Understanding the Psychology of Infidelity", an episode of What Your Therapist Thinks published November 5, 2025 (1 h 1 min, about 10,506 words). It mentions 23 people, works and ideas, including Amalia, Felicia Keller Bole, Christy Plantinga, Change My View, Oedipus complex.

What this episode is about

The discussion delves into the psychological underpinnings of infidelity, exploring why individuals cheat despite knowing its harmful effects on their partners. The complexity of human behavior is examined, emphasizing that many who engage in infidelity are often conflicted and tortured by their actions rather than experiencing joy in their deceit.

Key takeaways

  • Psychoanalysis thrives because shame alone can't fix self-destructive habits, keeping therapists in high demand.
  • Cheaters aren't villainous thrill-seekers; they're tortured by their actions, knowing it's inherently wrong.
  • The internet's divisive dating advice lacks the nuance therapists bring to discussions on infidelity.
  • Sex therapists offer a judgement-free zone, crucial for clients grappling with guilt and shame post-infidelity.
  • If shaming cured bad habits, therapists would be out of work; clarity isn't always a path to change.

What is discussed, and when

  1. – 10:00: Amalia, Amalia Miario, best therapist.com, Best Therapists
  2. – 40:00: Amalia, Ask Men Advice
  3. – 50:00: Change My View, Amalia, pleasure principle
  4. – 1:00:00: Amalia
  5. – 1:01:27: Amalia, best therapist.com, Christy Plantinga, Felicia Keller Bole

Notable quotes from "Why Do People Cheat? Understanding the Psychology of Infidelity"

  • Away the fact that like that was shitty and it's always going to be shitty. From your experience, Amalia, why do people cheat? Okay. Oh, man.
    about Amalia · at
  • Amalia Miario is a licensed clinical social worker and asex certified sex therapist providing therapy in Detroit and online for clients in Michigan and Pennsylvania. She specializes in helping.
    about Amalia Miario · at
  • Messaged people. And that surprised me at first because it was nowhere on my website. It wasn't at Psychology Today or like online profiles that I was specializing in that. But…
    about Psychology Today · at
  • Than like anything else. So this is from the subreddit, Ask Men Advice, and it was only posted 15 days ago, so it's nice and fresh. Why do people cheat instead of just ending the relationship? Something I've never.
    about Ask Men Advice · at
  • Okay, last post from Reddit. Not necessarily a question. This is from the subreddit. Change my view. change my view. People who cheat, regardless of the circumstance, are…
    about Change My View · at
  • Agree with what you're saying and the language that I would put to it is you're describing like the pleasure principle and you're describing the ways that when we're internally…
    about pleasure principle · at
  • Text them the podcast. You can also connect with us on Instagram at wyt podcast. We want to hear from you. So slide into our DMs with your mental health questions. They just might be featured on a future episode. What.
    about WYT Podcast · at

Who and what is mentioned in this episode?

People

  • Amalia — Person · 15 mentions · first at
  • Felicia Keller Bole — Person · 2 mentions · first at
    Mean the Reddit questions you post in the middle of the night. If you're new here, welcome. I'm Felicia Keller Bole, licensed somatic therapist and clinical adviser at best…
  • Christy Plantinga — Person · 2 mentions · first at
    Licensed somatic therapist and clinical adviser at best therapist.com. And I'm Christy Plantinga, founder of Best Therapists, and I've been in a lot of therapy. This show is…
  • Amalia Miario — Person · 1 mention · first at
  • Jean Piaget — Person · 1 mention

Companies & orgs

Concepts & topics

Sponsors

  • best therapist.com — Sponsor · 2 mentions · first at
    Here, welcome. I'm Felicia Keller Bole, licensed somatic therapist and clinical adviser at best therapist.com. And I'm Christy Plantinga, founder of Best Therapists, and I've…

Full transcript with timestamps

Oh, this is so good. Psychoanalytic work is so good. If that worked to just shame yourself into, oh, this is bad. Don't do it.

We wouldn't have jobs, right? I've never had anyone come in and say, I am cheating because I want to hurt my partner and I'm loving it. People are tortured by their own behavior. That's the reality is no amount of understanding is going to take away the fact that like that was shitty and it's always going to be shitty. From your experience, Amalia, why do people cheat? Okay. Oh, man. In this podcast, we unpack the internet's most asked anonymous mental health questions that you wish you could ask a therapist. And by anonymous, we mean the Reddit questions you post in the middle of the night. If you're new here, welcome. I'm Felicia Keller Bole, licensed somatic therapist and clinical adviser at best therapist.com. And I'm Christy Plantinga, founder of Best Therapists, and I've been in a lot of therapy. This show is brought to you by best therapist.com, a therapist directory that vets therapist so you can

focus on fit, not quality. You can find your best therapist at best therapist.com. It's time to find out what therapists are really thinking. Amalia Miario is a licensed clinical social worker and asex certified sex therapist providing therapy in Detroit and online for clients in Michigan and Pennsylvania. She specializes in helping women and gender non-binary clients navigate the complex dynamics of love, intimacy, and self-acceptance. As a therapist who values authenticity and depth, Amalia creates a compassionate space for patients to explore both their conscious concerns and the deeper patterns that shape their lives. Amalia, welcome to the show.

Hi, thanks so much. Thank you so much for being here today, Amalia. I think this is absolutely a topic worth discussing, which is why do people cheat? Yeah, like Christy said, this is a doozy of a topic. People have incredibly strong feelings about it. And if you've ever been cheated on or suspected that your partner cheated on you, obviously that's such a painful experience. And if you've ever cheated, you're also still a human being despite what the internet may say. And so we are going to be, you know, handling it with grace and really trying to explore it and bring some nuance and some cleareyed views to this topic when so much of the internet's advice is just like really really divisive. And so we're glad that you're here, Amalia, because we need a steady hand at the wheel of this topic, especially with so much heated conversation around it. Yes, absolutely.

And I would not take on this conversation with just anyone. I know that you're both able to really bring a lot of compassion and and care to something that's so sensitive to so many.

Absolutely. I think before we get into the juicy topic of why do people cheat, Amalia, if you can explain just kind of your clinical experience with this, I think that'd be really really helpful for listeners to know. That would be great.

Sure. So, when I launched my private practice um a little over five years ago, I pretty quickly got quite a few inquiries from people who had been someone who had cheated on their partner, whether it was a longer term affair multiple times, sort of like a oneoff, um or maybe it didn't involve physical contact, but they had like messaged people. And that surprised me at first because it was nowhere on my website. It wasn't at Psychology Today or like online profiles that I was specializing in that. But I think that when people saw that I had advanced training in human sexuality, I think people felt safer to come to me to talk about it. I think being a sex therapist has signaled a bit more openness than they might feel going to a different therapist. Not that other therapists wouldn't be open, but I think when you're reading online profiles and you're just wanting to signal safety, I think that is my guess as to why um a

decent amount of my practice became working with people who wanted to understand why they had done this and were feeling

like really confused and really ashamed. That makes so much sense that they would look for a therapist with experience in sex therapy because they're looking for a place that they can go to where they're not immediately going to get judged. And even though therapists are supposed to try to remain impartial, we are also humans. Like we have our own beliefs and values. And it's totally possible that a client would go to a therapist and lo and behold, find out that they

are not really appropriate to help them with something they're already feeling so much deep shame and conflict about.

Totally. Like no one who has cheated needs to be told this was wrong. Like people know that this wasn't

smoking. It's like yeah, I know it's bad for me, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Totally. It's like if that worked to just shame yourself into, oh, this is bad, don't do it. Like,

we wouldn't have jobs, right? Therapists wouldn't have jobs if all people had to do was acknowledge this wasn't working for them.

Totally. And we are able to see that when it comes to other types of like behavioral changes. But for some reason with cheating, we think if we just say like bad, don't do it.

Don't do it. Yeah. Then just say no to cheating. Right. Right. Yeah. So, I'm excited to talk about some of the nuance to that.

And I think it's important to acknowledge too for someone who has been cheated on probably one of the most painful like human experiences I would I would think.

So, totally. I think it's important to say too that like if you are coming into this episode, maybe you've even been recently cheated on and you're just like, "What the hell happened?" and you're looking for some kind of understanding. we see you. We're empathetic to to what's going on. So, and I actually hope that we can help if you are someone who's recently had that experience. I hope that us talking about it can take you out of whatever kinds of fantasies you might have that it was your fault that it was like connected to your own worth.

Absolutely. So, I want to ask the big question first and then I'll have a bunch of like breakdown type of type of questions and some really interesting things from Reddit as well, which we'll get into. So, Amalia, in your practice, why do people cheat? So, when I think about why people cheat, I want to think about developmentally what kinds of things happened early in their life. I want to be particularly paying attention to what happened when they were in a developmental stage thinking about triads. So when they were going from in early in life thinking about relationships from onetoone like caregiver to child to thinking um oh my caregivers have a relationship outside of me. I'm not always in the room. You might have heard this referred to as the edipal phase of development, but I don't know if that's too jargony to describe it like that. And I also want us wanted to encourage us to think about it in a

more neutral way in terms of gender. A lot of times when people hear edible phase, they're thinking like the little boy is in love with the mom and wants to kill the dad. And I think what's important is don't worry about like the gender stuff and who wants to marry who, but think about developmentally. We're not born with an understanding that two people could have a relationship outside of us. When we are very young, we are only seeing what's in front of us. And we are only imagining and experiencing relationships as one exclusive bubble that you know it's it's me and Christy or it's me and Felicia. It's not all three of us. and the imagining that the two of you have a relationship that I'm not a part of, right? You have this whole world between the two of you that is private for me.

And this is a really hard thing for us to come to terms with when you're really little. And there can be a lot of really big feelings about this feelings of jealousy, wanting to control, anger, hurt, betrayal. So, this is one of the most important phases of development that I am listening for. When I'm working with someone who has had an affair or who has cheated, I'm really trying to hear what in what ways are these triangles in their mind? In what way did this sort of get laid down in their development? And how is this unconsciously impacting how they're viewing relationships now and how they're behaving when there's a social expectation for them to be onetoone to be monogamous and if that is full of conflict and unresolved feelings it might be an impossible structure and that's different from someone who is choosing consensually to be non- monogamous right so I also want to make that distinction This is not to pathize

people who have effectively communicated and have consensually signed up for a relationship that's not onetoone. I'm talking about people who have committed to being onetoone and are not fulfilling that commitment. I love that take on this. I have never heard it presented in that way. really going back to early childhood development and that developmental challenge we have to move through of beginning to hold things outside of what we can actually see. It makes me think of like PJ's developmental stages that children when they are really young like do not understand that objects continue to exist when they are not visible to that child.

Right? So in their minds if it is not visible it literally doesn't exist anymore. That's one of the reasons why peekaboos can be so thrilling because for a moment you are you have gone. You have completely disappeared and then you reveal your face again. It's like oh my gosh you like emerged out of nowhere.

Totally. And there are so many ways that we can kind of get caught up in that as adults without even realizing it of like, yeah, I know it's wrong, but like when you're in it, it's like so hard to remember that there's someone else's feelings that are a part of what you're doing when you're even when you are onetoone with like an affair partner. It's just feels like too abstract, too vague. It's like you know it's there, but you kind of don't let yourself know that it's there when you're in the moment.

Yeah. It's almost like a form of dissociation in a way. Yeah. Like a a not knowing.

Exactly. A temporary not knowing. It's almost like you're splitting parts of your life, right? From

when you're with your primary partner in that relationship, there are probably certain rules and certain ways of being. And then in order to go have the affair, you almost have to forget that this part of your life even exists.

Yes. And you're making me think of something else, which is that one of the reasons, going back to the original question, like why do people cheat? One part of this is also um if someone has disavowed parts of themsel that they allow to come out with an affair partner and that could be something sexual but it could be something they aren't even really aware of that isn't sexual but is um like oh this person has experienced trauma like I've experienced or this other person just like gets this other part of me something and that they've have split off from the way they are with their primary partner. And it might be because that part of themselves like truly isn't welcome in the primary relationship or understood maybe. Or it might be that they're imagining it wouldn't be understood in their primary partnership.

Or is it maybe they don't want that part to be known for a while? Very good point. That's a very good point. Yes. of her that is riddled with the the conflict and shame or um they're afraid of knowing that part of themselves.

And if they're already doing something quote unquote shameful by having an affair, why not also allow that to be the playground for the other parts that feel shameful? It's like they've already opened that door. Maybe this is the place where I just get to be messy and I get to be all these different parts of myself that

in my waking life, you know, my other life I'm not allowed to be because I'm not like that. I'm I don't do bad things. I don't do wrong things. But I've kind of carved out this other section of my life where all of those rules don't apply and I can do and be all the things that I maybe consciously find not okay. Yes. And sometimes people are outside of their awareness actually pulling for punishment and wishing that the affair will be found out. Of course they they like don't want it to be found out in their conscious mind, but they might do things that suggest otherwise like you know leave some kind of evidence out for a primary partner to find.

And it is so counterintuitive that they are working so hard to not be found out. and at the same time are doing things to be found out.

And there might be different reasons for doing that. Like you said, there could be a desire to get caught and to be punished. There could also be a desire for all of the hiding to stop so that they don't have to be torn between these two different parts and they can just resolve it. Something is going to happen. Something's going to need to have to change, but they wouldn't have to keep on holding this big secret anymore.

Yes. And that could be a repetition of other times they've needed to hold big secrets, a repetition of like wishing for a caregiver to help them with something they really needed help with. So a pull for like I I don't know how to make good choices, so can you find this out about me and start to be the one in control of my life? Can you start to be like the person who's who's helping me in in a way that feels like caregiving? um by like monitoring me.

This feels like our most psychoanalytic episode so far. And I am having this stuff.

Yeah. Like playground like Yeah, exactly. All of these like interpretations like it makes and it makes sense to me that this is a topic where a psychoanalytic approach would be really appropriate. And I would love to hear like could you tell listeners a little bit about what like a psychoanalytic therapy approach is. How would you describe this to somebody who is seeking therapy?

Oh, I would love to. Um because the more I learn about psychoanalysis, the more I cannot get enough and I'm so pulled in. Um, so psychoanalysis is a way of working that is typically pretty intense and really relies on this belief that we have our conscious mind and an unconscious mind. And at like the most basic, that's what you need to know is that like something like CBT is really useful for understanding your conscious thoughts and working with your conscious thoughts. But um the unconscious mind is intricately interwoven with our early childhood development, our relationships, our attachment, the relationship with the therapist, all of this has a lot of meaning in our in our unconscious mind and things will repeat.

So that number one, the unconscious is real and number two, it repeats. We repeat and repeat and repeat until things are brought into our awareness. And the process of bringing things into our awareness can be really slow. It can be really painful. It can be um pretty labor intensive. They because there are good reasons.

Fun. I'm really selling it. Yeah. Sign us up, right? I'm I'm like all in cuz this is the type of work that I do. But yeah,

it's intense and sometimes slow and almost a bit mysterious compared to some of the other modalities that are just much more like straightforward and like you said book,

right? Exactly. We're really going in and there's so much curiosity on the part of the therapist obviously, but we're also asking that of the clients who are participating. Yes, absolutely. And you know, there's a reason why like it's so much easier to market CBT because if you believe that you just need to like come to the session and do this worksheet and you're going to be able to make the changes you want. Um, which some people can for some issues. I'm not discounting it, but that sounds so neat. That sounds so it's just it is it is a seductive pull of like ah this is all I need to do and I'll be able to you know live the life I want.

There are reasons why your mind is sort of protecting you from not knowing and why things are out of your awareness.

But it's really important to remember you don't do it alone. This is why you don't do it alone. You do it with a therapist. you do it with someone who you learn to trust and you work together and um the relationship is so so important it when you're working psychoanalytically or psychonamically is another word that you'll hear.

Okay. Well, it seems just so perfect for when you're doing something like cheating. You're like, why the hell am I doing this?

Exactly. You know, but it's like when you have anxiety, it's like I am anxious. I know I am doing these anxious behaviors. This is what And I'm sure psychoanalysis is also helpful for anxiety.

Yes. Yes. But for something like cheating, especially when it's just like I don't even know why I'm doing this. I don't understand myself truly at that level.

Yes. Exactly. Because I can tell you, I've never had anyone come in and say, "I am cheating because I want to hurt my partner and I want to do and I'm loving it." You know, that's that's never the experience. It's people are tortured by their own behavior. Let's just take a moment with that because I think for people who are listening to this and have been cheated on and are in so much pain, like maybe this is a small consolation, but I think that's really really important for you to hear cuz I think like we already said, one of the conclusions folks can come to is there's something wrong with me. Like I must not be this enough or I'm too much of that or they are trying to hurt me. And just to hear that for better or worse, like you have never heard that be the case for somebody who is coming in for cheating. No one has said that to you to date. And in fact, people feel

incredibly riddled with guilt and shame when they become conscious of the impact they're having on their partner.

Yeah. The sample I think is a little skewed, right? Like these are people who are seeking help for it. But even in the case like let's say this is the worst case scenario, sociopath, psychopath, they just want to hurt people. They probably don't even understand why they want to hurt people at the end of the day.

So it's almost like kind of and again I think sociopath, psychopath, other words that get thrown around a lot online without really understand different situation. Like if someone is truly uh lacking empathy, then like that's like a whole different category, right? So like that is so extreme and not very common. But yeah, even if someone were truly trying to hurry you because they got pleasure out of that, that person is going to be like in the extreme minority of folks who are cheating,

especially as like the sole motivator. Because I will add that there can be a way that cheating is a a way of showing anger and aggression that is not conscious that someone's not aware of and it can be used sort of sadistically of like I I do want to get back at this person. I do want to hurt this person um because they are feeling that this person has hurt them. So I I don't want to discount that as part of the picture. But to Christiey's point, of course, the people who are coming in for therapy are motivated to want to understand themselves and are sometimes feeling like absolutely tortured by their own behavior and stuck. What are some ways that that kind of plays out in an adult life? We've I think we've mentioned a few, but maybe just some common things that you've you've seen. It might go handinhand with someone like really being in denial that what they do with one person could impact their

relationship with another person. Um that they're really only able to see and feel what's in right in front of them at a time at one time. If there is a sense of like wanting to get back at someone for something, um it could be that they are feeling really jealous of how their partner's interacting with someone. It it could even be someone's really jealous of how their partner is interacting with their own kids. It it can sometimes go handinhand with people whose family of families of origin had um kind of loose definitions around their roles. So a a term that the internet is is all over the internet is like parentified child, right? So if if someone was um very parentified and their role as child was not really protected in their family, there can be a sense of not understanding the need to protect roles of relationships. But like you know if you feel attraction for someone, it doesn't

mean you have to act on it. you can stay in your role and and stick to your commitment. Um, so there's a lot around like boundaries, a lot around being able to keep in mind other more than one person at a time. Um, and a lot about like the role in relationships and understanding your feelings without losing sight of the role that you've agreed to be in.

That makes sense to me. And I do think the boundaries thing does kind of come up. So maybe it's like kind of an office romance. It's like knowing, you know, when to not be alone with someone or knowing that like, hey, probably getting their number isn't a good thing. But when you have less of those boundaries just cuz you learn them growing up, it's going to be easier, of course, to cross them because they don't really come to your mind as much. Is that a fair assessment? Mhm. in a way being able to separate fantasy from reality that you know there's a lot of fantasy about how things will be different with someone else, how you'll be different with someone else and it doesn't work out that way, but you know it it can seem so appealing.

Okay. Well, I think this will be a hopefully particularly healing question that I would love your opinion on. And this is for people who have been cheated on and also people who have cheated and that is can you truly love someone and still cheat on them. So another disclaimer I think it really depends on your personal belief system around love. I think love is a word that means something different to everyone and there will be people who like absolutely have drawn the line that you cannot love someone you it means you don't love them if you cheat on them and if that's your personal belief like that I'm not here to try to convince you to to stop believing what you believe but for me I I think yes I think you can love someone and cheat on them you probably are noticing in the our with the way we answered that whole first question. None of it was about the partner. None of it was about here's

what this other person has done or what they're lacking that has made someone cheat. It's all intracychically focused on the person who's doing the cheating. And it really doesn't say anything about what's happening in the dynamic between them or what their feelings are for their partner. And that's probably its own conversation, but you know, we're really thinking about what's happening in the mind of the person who's doing the cheating

because I imagine there are many instances still where the relationship is not going well. And so then, [clears throat] you know, they seek out satisfaction, whether it's sexual, emotional, whatever. I think that's kind of where most people's minds go when they think of cheating. either like that I'm not good enough or our relationship isn't satisfying in whatever way that that is.

Yeah. And that might be true that the relationship isn't satisfying, but that still doesn't touch the question of love for me.

Yeah, I'm really with you here. Everyone has a different definition of love, which is so crazy to me.

Yeah. I don't know. just like not being like a therapist of like I don't talk about what love is. I'm like love is love. You should know.

That is so annoying. I remember being a kid and like dating my first boyfriend like when I was in high school and he said he loved me and I was always like what what does that mean? Like what does it mean to be in love? And I remember like asking my other like 16-year-old friends what love was. And I I've never really found a satisfying answer and certainly not one that's universally accepted. And so I think it really does depend on your definition. And when cheating happens, you are probably in a situation of having to maybe redefine what love means to you. Whether you're the person who is doing the cheating or the person who has been cheated on, both parties may have told themselves that if I cheat, that means I don't love someone. And then maybe it happens and you're thinking, well, I want to continue this relationship. Okay. Well, it sounds like you have to update your definition of love, right?

What does it mean? Is it possible to cross that line and come back from it and decide that you do in fact love each other? because I can imagine a world in which you know lots of people actually have been through this right and decide to stay together

and it does require an update in the definition that's just such a personal journey and personal choice and again I think with everything related to this people really want like a concrete like yes or no

and this is annoyingly another one of those places where we're going to do the therapist thing and say it depends right

yes totally And if I'm working with someone who has been cheated on and they're grappling with that question, we're going to grapple with it for them like what is what does it mean to them and how does that connect with their own development and their own uh beliefs? And we want someone to really understand their whole self as much as possible, not for me to say yes or no.

Exactly. Yeah. A therapist or your 16-year-old friend Both great resources. Both great resources on

this topic. But they can give you the answer that's right for you. That's something that you really have to discover and define for yourself. And it's likely something that's going to get updated throughout your lifetime and should, right? Like my definition of love as a 16-year-old is not the same definition I have today. And thank God, right?

Yes. And you know, I think one way of defending against defending yourself against all of the hard feelings that come with those questions is to actually focus on your partner's inner world completely. So, if you are someone who has been cheated on and you find yourself in your own therapy sessions really wanting to focus on why your partner cheated and understand their traumas and their inner world, there is maybe something happening there that you're trying to protect yourself from all of the difficult feelings that come with facing the reality. like maybe there's a fantasy that if you understand totally why this person did it and what's happening in their inner world then it won't hurt as much and there might be some truth to that but I would also encourage you to think about what could be repeating in your own life when you're facing these big decisions of do you stay do you go what is love to you

those are questions that you really want to work on you know thinking Okay, where else in your life have you faced these types of questions? When else have you felt betrayed? When else have you felt like totally blindsided by something? And what are you feeling about that? And I think you'll find a lot of wisdom in coming from that place. Um, even though it's like so tempting to think like you just have to get to the bottom of why your partner did it and and then you it won't hurt. It's still going to hurt. Yeah, that is I think one of the hardest things to face about this that some things that happen in life hurt and they will always hurt to some extent. That was actually one of the best pieces of insight wisdom I ever got from a therapist. It was the first time I worked with a therapist. I was talking about something that was really really old for me and really really painful and I would say, "Man, I just want to get

over this. I'm so tired of being upset about this. And the therapist said, "Well, Felicia, what happened was really sad." And instead of like wishing or like hoping or pressuring yourself that you would get over it, um what if it was just okay that it was sad? And I was like, "Oh my gosh, I had literally never considered it. I thought because this was, you know, over a decade ago, it shouldn't hurt anymore." are. And I think that's the reality is no amount of understanding is going to take away the fact that like that was shitty and it's always going to be shitty like and that's okay.

Yes. That Yeah, that's so beautifully said and that your therapist is there to be with you in that as and it's not just about let's intellectualize and move past it. Let's try to use your sessions to psychoanalyze your partner. It's more about like let's just be in that together and we'll understand what this means for you.

Beautiful. I know. We always have the moment where we're like every episode just feeling so like calmed down and like just so touching.

So what does Reddit have for us Christie? Now it's now that Yeah, it was interesting, you know, doing some digging on all of this because the question, why do people cheat? Of like all the research I've done for our season so far, this question was asked like a hundred times more.

Wow. Than like anything else. So this is from the subreddit, Ask Men Advice, and it was only posted 15 days ago, so it's nice and fresh. Why do people cheat instead of just ending the relationship? Something I've never really understood. Why do people, men or women, cheat? What's usually the main driving factor that triggers someone to cheat in the first place? If you're unhappy in a relationship, whether it's physical, emotional, or whatever, why not just end it instead of going behind your partner's back? To me, it seems like cheating causes way more damage in the long run, not just for the person being cheated on, but also for trust in future relationships. Would like to hear from people who have either cheated or been cheated on. What do you think the root cause really is?

I would be curious to hear if there's anyone in the comments who has done the cheating and had an answer.

It reminds me of what you know the example you used earlier of like why do people smoke when you know it's bad? It's like, yeah. Do I also like it? Like

yeah, there's something gratifying like, so, so, yes. Do I think it's a better idea to say, I'm unhappy. I need to part. I don't want to hurt you like, and go your separate way and then start a new relationship. Of course, like, I don't think that's really up for debate, but that people there's something gratifying. there is something that's being repeated, some kind of conflict that is deep within them that they are trying to work out. I asked, you know, what anyone in the comments had to say because I would be surprised if anyone really knew, like if anyone responded with something that was really well thought out or if they're kind of like, I don't know, it just seemed hard or impossible.

Yeah, to be honest, most of it sounds like it's people who have been cheated on, saying stuff like comes down to people wanting to have their cake and eat it too. He wanted the status and normaly of the lovely wife and children while living the single life. She wanted the nice house in the suburbs while paying less than a third of the rent and none of the utilities, but wanted to party like she was still single. So I think maybe that's the perspective more of people who have been cheated on or maybe like know someone who have been cheated on and that was kind of their reflection. Um cuz I think because of all the shame probably even on Reddit people don't really want to be like hey I cheated and everyone's going to be like [ __ ] you.

Exactly. I was going to say Reddit Reddit would be the place if there were to be a place.

Yeah. they would probably get their asses handed to them even though it's like I think it's a fair

a fair question where it's like why wouldn't you just end it but I mean we've already gone into like all the reasons that people don't

yeah and there might be some truth to some of those like conjectures that people have made like there might be you know if one of these people were to get into therapy and say like hey I'm cheating and do the psychoanalytic work of like uncovering what is underneath that some of it might be a bit of like I I want to have my cake and eat it too. I want these certain privileges or access to things that I have and I want the freedom which seemed to be like the theme with both of those like examples that you brought up Christie is like security and freedom. Um access and like yeah freedom that kind of dichotomy that people were highlighting and my guess is that is sometimes the case. Amalia, would you would you say you've heard some people like come to that conclusion?

Yes. And I think I've used throughout the episode the language of like inner conflict. And I think what you just explained is a perfect example of what I mean when I say inner conflict of wanting closeness, wanting intimacy, wanting connection while also um having some fear that intimacy will mean their freedom is gone and doing something to try to hold on to their freedom. Whether it's true or not that the intimacy would like in a tangible way impede upon their freedom. Um right because of course remember they have chosen presumably to be in this relationship

of their free will of their free will but it feels right in an unconscious way it feels like they will be trapped or annihilated or like smothered like but they still want the intimacy. So that's that's a perfect example of what I mean when I say inner conflict and it shows in this kind of behavior.

Absolutely. So those like really deep core needs that all humans have for a sense of closeness, belonging, intimacy and also for freedom, individuality, autonomy and this ability to express oneself and th those are often like at the polar ends of of the same spectrum, right? And we need both. So if we don't know how to really feel as if we're getting both in the context of our primary relationship, if we feel like that is the place where we can only get one of those needs fulfilled, like this is where we get all of our intimacy and closeness and belonging, but I have no idea. I haven't really negotiated or figured out how to get a sense of freedom within the context of this relationship. It may at sometimes feel easier to go cheat. And what's happening when you do that is now you possibly have this like really intense inner conflict, but that's somehow still less work for you than figuring out how to get both

needs met in the context of this relationship. And again, that's where like the psychoanalytic work can come in of really understanding what is maybe the the work and the effort that you're avoiding over here because even though this is so torturous, it somehow feels like less work for you. So is that really true? or can we can can we investigate that together?

Yes. And the negotiation of the freedom like is within the relationship but it's also sometimes it doesn't matter what's happening in actuality in the relationship. It doesn't matter who the partner is. It feels like there's no freedom on the inside

because there there was some kind of earlier experience in the way that you initially were relating to caregivers of feeling like totally um impinged upon. And so you play that out with your partner even if your partner isn't the one doing it.

Yeah. They might be like, "I'm seriously not trying to stop you from doing AB, CD, D." But the the pattern that a person comes into that relationship is one in which at least early on anytime there was intimacy, there was also control perhaps.

And so the partner doesn't even need to attempt to control them for the person to feel as if they're being controlled. And at the end of the day, you could go from relationship to relationship to relationship, cheating, burning bridges, always feeling as if this other person has tried to control you. And maybe that's not even what's going on. And you'll be wondering why this is happening, and maybe even come up with ways that this person is trying to control you without bothering to check if that's true or not or trying to create something different. And you could stay stuck in this repetition cycle like you were speaking to earlier.

Totally. And what we hope for is that that then repeats with the therapist, right? Why are you charging me this cancellation fee? Why are you why are you telling me I can only come at this time or like whatever the thing is? It why are you trying to control me? And we want that kind of thing to happen with the therapist so that it can be talked about and processed and and that cycle is broken.

Exactly. Oh, this is so good. Psychoan psychoanalytic work is so good. I did find an interesting comment and I want to say

these are not the opinions or beliefs of necessarily edited on this podcast but

it's giving a little more nuance I think. And actually now that I'm reading all these comments on this and like maybe I am afraid to release this episode cuz people are like people are in it. There are a few different reasons that overlap. A lot of it is status. Being in a committed relationship in most cultures is socially superior to being single. This is especially true in conservative circles, but it's true across the board. There's also a mix of two reasons. A genuine desire not to hurt someone else and cowardice. Almost all of us are afraid to end a relationship that we know isn't working for us. Part of it is that we genuinely care about the other person. We wish the relationship was better. We don't want to hurt the other person. Yes, cheaters inevitably hurt their partners more down the line, but no one ever said humans are rational.

Our brains are geared for short-term social analysis, not long-term. The cowardice largely comes from the fact that we can't prove that our reasons for ending the relationship are good enough. There are going to be people that we care about who hate us and think we are a bad person for ending a good relationship, even if the relationship wasn't good for us. This is especially true for married couples where divorce is almost universally understood as a negative thing. Lastly, it's that sexual attraction is known to reduce cognitive capacity. You are genuinely dumber and more impulsive around someone when you are sexually aroused. This causes a feedback loop.

Being around the affair partner feels really [ __ ] good, just like being around anyone you're attracted to feels really [ __ ] good. Then you aren't around them and you feel like [ __ ] You're guilty as hell. You know you're doing something awful and wrong. You tell yourself you're going to break it off, confess to your partner, or maybe even end your current relationship. But wanting to do those things and having the courage and self-esteem to actually do it are two separate things. Cheaters universally have extremely low self-esteem. Even the narcissistic ones who are being deliberately abusive with their cheating. And of course, that is sometimes the reason too. Sometimes a cheater is just a narcissist who doesn't give a [ __ ] who they hurt as long as they are getting their validation.

Damn. Damn. I appreciate their honesty and that they took the time to really think and to type that out.

They hashed it out. Yeah, they did. That felt really nuanced, like super insightful.

And I hear how much that person feels powerless. They are feeling like everyone else's rules and expectations matter more than what they want for their own life and they're not really able to hear themselves. It's tough to know if this person actually cheated. They don't say

I'm like, is this person a therapist? Actually I would encourage that person if they have cheated to get some help making sense of where they can have more agency in their life that they, you know, it sounds like they feel really really burdened by what other people expect of them and the compromise they've made is possibly to cheat, but that's not the only way.

Yeah. Yeah. And I think what's so important about this is that if this is a part of a really really early pattern, then it is likely to be repeated not because it's cheating, but just because it's an early pattern. And if it is not resolved, if there isn't a new path forward, it's likely to get expressed again and again and again. Maybe not just as cheating, but in a multitude of ways. This could show up in someone's career. This could show up in their friendships. This could show up in all different areas of their life if they've got an issue around intimacy, freedom, control, right? This is going to be a theme across relationships and it's going to obviously manifest differently depending on the area of life, but it is probably going to continue to cause them problems. And again, if they don't take the time to really understand the underpinnings of it, it's just going to get repeated again and again.

Absolutely. And I love that you brought up it. It could be cheating again or it could be something else. Like this person who left that comment immediately not knowing this person is not knowing anything about them. I'm like, "Wow, they sound like they really feel disconnected from their sense of agency that

other people's expectations are just like totally dictate their life." Like yeah, you can imagine all the ways that could create problems at work, not just in in terms of like possibly cheating.

And we don't even have time to get into I was getting some also like a man does this socially acceptable that like I was getting some of that too. We literally don't even have time to get

but it matters. Yeah. Social Yeah. We Yes. Yep. Social context absolutely matters and you know we can talk about it sociologically. We can also talk about like the collective unconscious and the way that these things

like infiltrate our minds. Yeah, that'll be part two. Part two to this topic if we don't get so much hate DMs that we want to cover this topic again. Um

I'm optimistic. I'm optimistic. I hope that folks listening are um feeling like their feelings are valid regardless of whichever side they've been on. then, you know, there could very well be people who have been on both sides. You know, we're kind of talking about this as if it's like two distinct groups of people, but that's of course not always the case. There are probably many people who have both been cheated on and who have cheated. Um, people who have bangs and who have been cheated on.

Okay, last last post from Reddit. Not necessarily a question. This is from the subreddit. Change my view. change my view. People who cheat, regardless of the circumstance, are selfish. I feel important to first preface that I've never personally been cheated on myself. I just don't understand why people don't have the courtesy to simply tell someone it's not working out or end things before they move on to other relationships. It makes sense to me that would be appropriate. Is it because we cannot have difficult conversations? Why can't we just be honest? I'm truly open to seeing a less black and white view on this. I've never personally been cheated on myself. I've just always personally believed that's unforgivable.

How can you ever trust them again? Respectfully, excluding relationships that have any form of abuse going on. So, change my view. People who cheat, regardless of the circumstance, are selfish. Okay? I'm not trying to be an apologist for people who cheat, but like we're all selfish. Like fundamentally people are making decisions with the goal of increasing their happiness and decreasing their discomfort. That's how we're moving through the world. Now, it's not like it's not that we can't make decisions that don't prioritize that, but under most circumstances, that's that's like part of how we operate through the world. So I think the answer is probably like yes. There is obviously a degree of selfishness in this. But to me that just feels like fundamental uh and more like a matter of degree.

Amalia, what you were saying earlier is there might be kind of like ways that someone who is cheating is actually in their own mind like in a roundabout way trying to prioritize their main partner's feelings and and probably also the feelings of the person they're cheating with. Right? It's like, well, if I tell the person, that's going to hurt them

either way. Kind of like the commenter on the previous post said, if I tell them I don't want to be with them, it's going to hurt them. If I cheat on them, it's going to hurt them. I'm kind of like, this is a lose-lose situation. So they might be, and again I'm not trying to like defend people cheating, just trying to like illuminate it. But it may be that like in that moment somehow this was like the best outcome they could come up with. Like I'm going to like both try to like hurt them the least amount possible while also hurting myself the least amount possible and this was like the best I could come up with for right now. Even if it's still overall not great. Yeah, I I think I agree with what you're saying and the language that I would put to it is you're describing like the pleasure principle and you're describing the ways that when we're internally conflicted, we're always compromising. This is true

in like daily things, right? Like this isn't this isn't like some big pathized thing. Like I like wanted to go watch Netflix after I finished my day today, but I signed up to be on this podcast like

to talk about super difficult stuff. And I and I also wanted to be here, right? I I wanted both. I wanted like, you know, and I had to like make a compromise. Okay, I'm going to go watch Netflix like after we're finished recording, you know, and and so it's we're always doing this all day all the time. It's not

about literally like everything everything big and small and when it comes to something you like like cheating, you know, it's just that happening on a really large scale.

Exactly. And I think we have such a hard time thinking about it though because of how uh significant the the morality is around this like morality. I just hear this whole conversation online happening through the lens of what's right and wrong and morality is just not going to take us where we need to go. It's it's just not enough to help us.

That's a great point. Yeah, you're right. Like all of these conversations are basically some version of like is this right or is it wrong? And if it's wrong, then like we can just treat this as something that's totally wrong and like this person's 100% bad and we can kind of like wrap this conversation up and move on with our lives, right? Or is it good? And of course it's not good because it's so clearly bad. We're kind of like it's not great obviously and we can't really boil it down to just that. Like we're it's like we're asking the wrong questions. If we're stuck on the morality issue, we're we're totally missing the point of this whole thing and we're not

going to get anywhere. If the goal is just is this right or wrong, is this person bad or good? We never actually resolve the issue.

So, is the goal to make a moral decision about this or is it to actually resolve it?

Damn, we have really gone places this episode. I didn't think I'd be discussing what is love. Yeah.

On this podcast. What is the nature of good and evil? Yeah. What the hell? What happens after we die? Let's get that in here. We have a couple minutes. [clears throat]

Oh boy. That's so true that it's, you know, are we trying to say what's good or bad? Are we trying to come to an understanding about this topic?

Yeah. And I can very confidently defend my position that I am here to try to help people and deciding if they are good or bad is not helpful at all.

We know% we know smoking is bad. That's not how to get someone to quit. Right. Instead of like how can I stop smoking? It's like asking are people who smoke bad?

Exactly. Yeah. And it's like you said, Amalia, we'll get nowhere with that question because what we're doing when we're asking that question is if you're the person who's been cheating cheated on, it's one of the things to keep you busy besides feeling your own hurt and understanding what this activates for you and your own psychology. And for the person who's doing the cheating, it's it's also a distraction from like, well, what's going on? And what can I do to change these behaviors or come to a place of resolution in this? It's a distraction and it's very handy because the other things that we're describing are so much more painful and require so much more work. Yes, there may be pieces of what we've said today that really like give you something new to think about and land with your personal experience and there might not be because you might have, you know, some other type of inner conflict and inner

issue that like we didn't touch on today because absolutely everyone is so unique and that's one of the things that makes this work like never boring like always like so fascinating and um just never get I hope this is bringing people some comfort. Like there's nothing wrong with going on Reddit and like asking to be seen in some of your darkest moments. And if what you're actually wanting is to get a real resolve in yourself to feel better about yourself, to find a path forward, if you're if you've been cheating, to like change your behavior, like really the answer is to do work on yourself. There's no way around that.

There's no shortcut. There's no short. Once again, we discover on this podcast that there isn't a shortcut. Well, then I'm out. forget.

No, totally go find a therapist regardless of which side of this equation you may be on. And I hope we've made a case for like the power of depth work, which is like another thing you might hear psychoanalytic therapists use. Like this is traveling from the tip of the iceberg, the conscious mind, into the much much much larger and deeper base of the iceberg, the underwater portion of the iceberg. There's so much to discover in there, but don't go alone. Take someone with you.

Don't go alone. Don't underestimate it. And it's really, really powerful. And it's I think some of the most like profound types of work that we can do in therapy.

There's so much freedom on the other side. That's that's the word for me is like if you are feeling tortured by your own mind and your own choices like there is freedom on the other side.

Beautiful. One of my teachers says the bigger the fear the bigger the freedom on the other side. And that's exactly what you're saying, like the bigger the fear, the bigger the trepidation, the more stuck you feel, the more freedom is on the other side of working through that. So, you have so much to gain. If you feel like you're a person who's been stuck in patterns, whether that's being cheated on or cheating, there is actually a way out of that. You aren't stuck in this pattern for the rest of your life. You're not damned to unfulfilling relationships.

But the only way out of that in most cases is to get in there and get your hands dirty. And doing that with somebody who you can trust. One of the best ways to do that, in my opinion, is to go on a few quote unquote first dates with with different therapists to see what it feels like to connect with them. And I also want to say Amalia because you mentioned something earlier that I think was so important um that it is normal for conflict to come up in your relationship with your therapist. And in fact, when you're working from a psychoanalytic perspective, that is one of the big ways that change can happen.

One of the big ways that we can resolve these patterns and complete them in a new way. Now, I'm not saying go into your therapy session trying to fight with your therapist, and I'm not saying therapists are out to frustrate you intentionally, but just that in the course of any human relationship, frustrations and challenges will occur. But therapists uh are in this unique position that no one else in your life is truly where they have a vested interest and a responsibility to support you and to support your development in a really really unique way. So take advantage of it. Don't run away when there's conflict. Now, of course, if this is truly not a good fit, like you are empowered to make a change and if it's at all possible, lean into it. Get honest with your therapist. have the tough conversations there. A great therapist will be able to hold their own boundaries and hold themselves while

also staying connected with you. Yes, absolutely. So, Amalia, we have to ask you before you go, what do you really think about people who cheat? Oh, man. I think that people who cheat need help and deserve help if they want help.

Beautiful. Yeah. Yeah. It's as simple as that. Yeah. You know, like anything that somebody might be doing that is harmful to them and others, help is out there. You know, if you want to change, if you feel like this is actually a problem in your life, which of course is a very important first step. You know, you kind of have to decide that this is something you want help with. But if you do, there is help out there. That doesn't include debating your value, your intrinsic value as a human,

right? And Amalia has at least one therapist out in the world that's a safe place to go to with these issues.

Oh, thank you so much. Yeah, of course. Thank you for joining us on this. Oh my gosh.

Yeah, you led us through the topic and we're just so grateful. Yeah. Where can people find you if they want to learn more about you, your work, work with you, connect with you, follow you on social media?

Sure. So, the best place to find me is my website. It's amid Detroitcounseling.com. You can find me on Instagram, amalia. You can subscribe to my blog. I really enjoy writing blogs because it gives me much more real estate to dive into these topics than I

for nuance. More room for nuance than I'm going to find in an Instagram caption.

Yeah. We used a lot of lingo today describing different kinds of therapists and

might be listening to this like driving, doing the dishes, like you might not have taken extensive notes.

Psycho. What did you say exactly? I know it can be overwhelming like not knowing what what types of terms to even search for. So,

absolutely. Yeah. So, we want to make sure that you're able to find a therapist who is a great fit for you. So, Amalia has really graciously offered to share some of her guides with you. She's got a guide for folks who have been cheating and are ready to get some help so that you can help find a safe and supportive therapist for you. and a guide for people who have been cheated on so that you can find the right therapist for you. So, we've got those in our show notes. So, please go grab those, get her freebie, and get on her email list.

Oh my gosh, thank you so much, Amalia. Such a pleasure, and yeah, I really hope that people enjoy this this conversation, learn a lot from it.

That's all for this week's episode. If this conversation resonated with you, the best way to support us is to follow, rate, and review the show wherever you're listening right now. Are you watching on YouTube? Subscribe and drop us a comment. Have a friend in mind who could use the advice in this episode. Text them the podcast. You can also connect with us on Instagram at wyt podcast. We want to hear from you. So slide into our DMs with your mental health questions. They just might be featured on a future episode. What your therapist thinks is hosted by me, Christy Plantinga, and Felicia Keller Bole. This show is brought to you by best therapist.com, a therapist directory that vets therapists. So you can focus on fit, not quality. You can find your best therapist at best therapist.com. Our show is produced by the team at Pod Vision. See you next time.

Questions about this episode

What is "Why Do People Cheat? Understanding the Psychology of Infidelity" about?

The discussion delves into the psychological underpinnings of infidelity, exploring why individuals cheat despite knowing its harmful effects on their partners. The complexity of human behavior is examined, emphasizing that many who engage in infidelity are often conflicted and tortured by their actions rather than experiencing joy in their deceit.

What is mentioned in this What Your Therapist Thinks episode?

23 people, works and ideas are mentioned, including Amalia, Felicia Keller Bole, Christy Plantinga, Change My View, Oedipus complex, Best Therapists. Each one on this page links to its own page with every episode that mentions it.

How long is "Why Do People Cheat? Understanding the Psychology of Infidelity"?

The episode runs 1 h 1 min; the transcript is about 10,506 words in 144 timestamped sections.

More from What Your Therapist Thinks

About this transcript: the episode's spoken words as captioned on YouTube, split into timestamped sections. Reclip.Me locates every person, work and idea in the text, keeps the time it is first named, and quotes the words around it verbatim. Last updated December 19, 2025.