Transcript

Win Every Negotiation - Kwame Christian

From The Proven Podcast · Episode page · Watch on YouTube

· 43 min · 10,018 words · 110 timestamped sections

This is the full, timestamped transcript of "Win Every Negotiation - Kwame Christian", an episode of The Proven Podcast published September 4, 2025 (43 min, about 10,018 words). It mentions 35 people, works and ideas, including Jeffrey 71st – Miller, Charles, curiosity, Compassionate Curiosity, Body Language, Negotiate Anything.

Who speaks in this episode?

What is discussed, and when

  1. – 5:00: American Negotiation Institute, Jeffrey 71st – Miller, Charles, CEO skill set, Negotiate Anything
  2. – 10:00: Jeffrey 71st – Miller, Charles, American Bar Association, American Negotiation Institute, Compassionate Curiosity
  3. – 15:00: Compassionate Curiosity, curiosity, Joint Problem Solving, Body Language
  4. – 20:00: Compassionate Curiosity, curiosity, Frontal Lobe, Jeffrey 71st – Miller, Charles
  5. – 25:00: Jeffrey 71st – Miller, Charles, Empathy Loop
  6. – 30:00: Apathy, Body Language, Frontal Lobe, Getting to No
  7. – 35:00: curiosity, Jeffrey 71st – Miller, Charles, Body Language, Compassionate Curiosity
  8. – 40:00: Body Language, curiosity, Compassionate Curiosity, Emotional Intelligence
  9. – 43:15: Negotiate Anything, Body Language, Jeffrey 71st – Miller, Charles

Notable quotes from "Win Every Negotiation - Kwame Christian"

  • Today's guest Christian proves that's the worst way to get what you want. The founder and CEO of the American Negotiation Institute and host of the world's number one…
    about American Negotiation Institute · at
  • Goal is to help to make difficult conversations easier. And I know Charles, you know this, when it comes to negotiation, there are some ways that we can over complicate things…
    about Jeffrey 71st – Miller, Charles · at
  • Step up to the plate and swing the bat it really doesn't matter. So if we can let's start with the people pleasing side because I think you and I share a little bit of this in…
    about People Pleasing · at
  • Competition at the school and that gave us the opportunity to represent the school at the American Bar Association competition in Ottawa, Ontario. And we won that competition…
    about American Bar Association · at
  • And we can talk about my frameworks for internal and external negotiation in a bit, but I say, All right, cool. You want to freak out? Let's freak out.
    about External Negotiation · at
  • Kicks. I fear the man who has practiced one kick 10,000 times. and compassionate curiosity. This framework is your one kick. Because for me, having done over 1500 episodes of…
    about curiosity · at
  • I will change that narrative. I also will change physically where I'm sitting. We talked about body language beforehand. I will hand them something and then I'm Oh, wait. Is…
    about Body Language · at
  • Operating from the strategic part of their brain. They're not using their prefrontal cortex and frontal lobe.
    about Frontal Lobe · at

Who and what is mentioned in this episode?

People

Books & papers

  • Getting to No — Book · 1 mention · first at
    And over again. And you know there's phenomenal books there was like getting to yes or getting to no and what happens is they yes stack and it doesn't work because when…
  • Getting to Yes — Book · 1 mention · first at
    And over again. And you know there's phenomenal books there was like getting to yes or getting to no and what happens is they yes stack and it doesn't work because when…

Companies & orgs

  • American Negotiation Institute — Company · 3 mentions · first at
  • Proven Podcast — Company · 1 mention · first at
    Welcome to the Proven Podcast where it does not matter what you think, only what you can prove. Everyone thinks negotiation is about winning and losing.
  • American Bar Association — Company · 1 mention · first at
  • Saturn — Company · 1 mention · first at
    Won't work with these people. Those tactics won't work with you. For my favorite example of this is Saturn. It used to be a car, not the planet. the car company called Saturn…
  • Apple Inc. — Company · 1 mention
  • NASA — Company · 1 mention

Products & tech

Concepts & topics

  • curiosity — Concept · 12 mentions · first at
  • Compassionate Curiosity — Concept · 10 mentions · first at
    Kicks. I fear the man who has practiced one kick 10,000 times. and compassionate curiosity. This framework is your one kick. Because for me, having done over 1500 episodes of…
  • Body Language — Concept · 9 mentions · first at
  • Frontal Lobe — Concept · 4 mentions · first at
  • External Negotiation — Concept · 2 mentions · first at
  • Joint Problem Solving — Concept · 2 mentions · first at
    And validate the emotions, feelings or beliefs. step two is get curious with compassion and step three is using joint problem solving. So if there's an emotional issue, you…
  • CEO skill set — Concept · 1 mention · first at
    Comes down to it, at the end of the day, we need to have two things. We have to have mindset and skill set. Not only do we have to know what to do or say, but we have to have…
  • People Pleasing — Concept · 1 mention · first at
  • Survivability Test — Concept · 1 mention · first at
    One of the things that I've done is I created a survivability test. So, think about taking the BATNA to the next level. So, BATNA, we talk about the best alternative to a negotiated agreement.
  • Malatina — Concept · 1 mention · first at
    Ones that don't sound as cool, so I don't think they're as popular. We have Malatina, we have Watnina. So most likely outcome and you know worst, but BATNT is usually good…
  • Watnina — Concept · 1 mention · first at
    Ones that don't sound as cool, so I don't think they're as popular. We have Malatina, we have Watnina. So most likely outcome and you know worst, but BATNT is usually good…
  • Internal Negotiation — Concept · 1 mention · first at
    Years. We just cycle over the worst possible outcomes. And so I say it I turn it into an internal negotiation.
  • Empathy Loop — Concept · 1 mention · first at
    So, first I like to use the empathy loop. So, again, three steps. First step, this is going to blow your mind Charles. Step one is listen. Okay. Now, step two is summarize. And again, use.
  • Apathy — Concept · 1 mention · first at
    There's a huge difference between empathy and apathy which people go look it up. There's a huge difference. I'm going to steal a second and explain mine which is not that.
  • Emotional Intelligence — Concept · 1 mention · first at
    Up on body language. Start studying up on personality. Start studying up on culture. Start studying up on emotional intelligence because again if we bring this back to…
  • BATNA — Concept · 1 mention
  • Microexpressions — Concept · 1 mention
  • ZOPA — Concept · 1 mention

Places & events

  • Ottawa, Ontario — Place · 1 mention · first at
    Us the opportunity to represent the school at the American Bar Association competition in Ottawa, Ontario. And we won that competition, too. So I was sold. And so for me…
  • Tiffin, Ohio — Place · 1 mention

Full transcript with timestamps

Welcome to the Proven Podcast where it does not matter what you think, only what you can prove. Everyone thinks negotiation is about winning and losing. Today's guest Christian proves that's the worst way to get what you want. The founder and CEO of the American Negotiation Institute and host of the world's number one negotiation podcast has cracked the code on turning difficult conversations into successful outcome. The show starts now.

All right, everybody. Welcome back to the show. I'm excited about this one. We've already been talking for an hour before we even started recording. So, you're going to catch some different energy on this one, man. Welcome to the show.

Hey, man. It's great to be here and thanks for broing out beforehand, too. Absolutely. It's been a We talked about things that we could not talk about if it was being recorded. It was a lot of fauxpaw stuff here. So, walk everybody through, tell everybody who you are and what your claims of fame are.

Wow. Okay. So, my name isWami Christian, founder and CEO of the American Negotiation Institute, host of the number one negotiation podcast in the world, Negotiate Anything, and two-time bestselling author. So, um, for me, my goal is to help to make difficult conversations easier. And I know Charles, you know this, when it comes to negotiation, there are some ways that we can over complicate things, but when it comes down to it, at the end of the day, we need to have two things. We have to have mindset and skill set. Not only do we have to know what to do or say, but we have to have the confident mindset to be able to do or say what needs to be said or done when it needs to be said or done. Right? And for me, I've recognized for too many years in the negotiation industry, we've been giving recipes to people who are afraid to get in the kitchen. It's not that they don't know what to do, they just don't have the

confidence to overcome those fears. And for me there there's a different approach for negotiation for me like my entry point into it because a lot of folks might say yeah I've been a corporate executive so now I'm a negotiation expert or I made millions in sales so now I'm a negotiation expert or I was a hostage negotiator now I'm a negotiation expert but for me my story is different. I was a people pleaser for the majority of my life and it wasn't until I found negotiation in law school that I started to recognize this was a skill not a talent and so from there it was just about developing the skills and sharing it with the world. So there's a lot to unpack there. So we're going to roll it back a little bit for So you've done an immense amount of negotiation.

I've done an immense amount of negotiation, both certified in it. For those of you who want to pay play that game, we're going to skip that. If you want to know what ZOPA is, you want to know what BATNA is, you want to do that, go on YouTube, have fun. You'll go figure out what those things are. They're negotiation terms. That that's really really simple. I want to talk more about what you were talking about earlier about being a people pleaser and going in the situation is also people not feeling comfortable or confident because if you have all the skills on the planet but you're not willing to step up to the plate and swing the bat it really doesn't matter. So if we can let's start with the people pleasing side because I think you and I share a little bit of this in common of how we ended up the way we are be it good or be it bad before therapy we both ended up a certain way. You said you were a people

pleaser. Walk me through that. Yes. So often times people have a different origin point for where this comes from. And so for me, I'm a first generation Caribbean American and I grew up in a small town called Tiffen, Ohio. And if you're saying, "Where is Tiffen?" That's the point. That is the point. So I used to say that uh there were only four black people in Tiffen. Me, my mom, my dad, my brother. And uh we stood out not just visibly, but also audibly because we we had Caribbean accents, too. Yeah. So, I remember one time in first grade going on the playground during recess and trying to find people to play with me. And I went to one group of students and said, "Hey, can I play with you?" They said, "No." Then another group, "Hey, can I play with you?" And they said, "No." Then like time was running out. So I said, "Okay, let me try this last group. Can I play with you?" No. And so the bell rang and I

walked inside and just started balling. Just couldn't control the tears. And then my teacher said, "What's wrong?" And I said, "Nobody will play with me." And so Charles, that day at age six, I said to myself, I will never ever feel this way again. Everybody's going to like me. I'm going to have a lot of friends. I'm and I'm never going to feel this lonely and embarrassed again. So from the outside looking in, you would see it was a success because you would say, "Okay, he went through 8th grade. He became the most popular kid in school. Same thing in high school.

Captain of the basketball team, created the chess team, you know, captain of the tennis team." All of these things, right? Um, but they don't recognize the hidden and silent sacrifices and compromises I made to do that. I would say yes when I meant to say no and I would just get along to get along, you know, and I was getting other people to like me, but at times when I was making those sacrifices, I wasn't liking myself right?

And so I didn't know how to overcome it. I thought I was doomed to be like this. I didn't even make that connection at that time like how I got to this. So, I studied psychology and it I studied how to overcome fears and phobias and then like the the mindset of top performers and I realized, okay, I can start to work on myself to overcome this fear. And then when I got to law school, that's when I took that negotiation class and I went to Ohio State and they have the the top ranked dispute resolution program in the country. So, I loved the class and I said, "Oh my gosh, this is how I actually do it." And so, they had these negotiation competitions.

So, it's like mock trial but for deal making. So my partner and I, we won the competition at the school and that gave us the opportunity to represent the school at the American Bar Association competition in Ottawa, Ontario. And we won that competition, too. So I was sold. And so for me, Charles, I was saying, "All right, this is great for me because every time I stand up for myself, every time I have a tough conversation, I am casting a ballot in favor of the man that I ultimately want to become." But at the same time, I realized, wait a second, there probably other people out in the world who are struggling with the same thing. I want to create something for them. And so that's what got me on the journey with the American Negotiation Institute and the podcast and the rest is history.

So when you started talking about this, it seems like the root of this is not being accepted or not being enough.

Yes. And I think a lot of people when they go into negotiations, whatever it is, they don't feel that their position is worthy because they don't feel worthy. There's a bunch of different ways of going into negotiations. When you start going into the negotiation, what are the key things that you want to sit down and say, "Hey, how do I make myself feel like I'm enough? How do I make it so that I can at least step up to that plate or walk into the kitchen and actually implement those recipes?" Because knowing the skills is one thing, but implementing them is is completely different.

You're 100% right. And so, let's think about the short-term scenario, right? Because like you said, long-term therapy journaling introspection that's what we really need, you know, um that self-love is important, but you know, we don't always have the time for years of therapy before our difficult conversation. So, what do we do?

One of the things that I've done is I I created a survivability test. So, think about taking the BATNA to the next level. So, BATNA, we talk about the best alternative to a negotiated agreement. Then, if you go down, we have the other ones that don't sound as cool, so I don't think they're as popular. We have Malatina, we have Watnina. So most likely outcome and and you know worst, you know, but BATNT is usually good enough. But for me, I think about the survivability test in terms of my worthiness and feeling of enough and feeling of safety. So I say like worst case scenario, let's walk through it.

What are the things that I'm afraid of? And what's interesting, Charles, is that when you go through this, like when you go through it without doing it in a structured exercise form, what ends up happening is we go through this catastrophizing cycle where for minutes, hours, days, weeks, months, maybe even years. We just cycle over the worst possible outcomes. And so I say it I turn it into an internal negotiation. And we can talk about my frameworks for internal and external negotiation in a bit, but I say, "All right, cool. You want to freak out? Let's freak out.

Let's do this." So I'm going to set the timer. We're going to freak out for 10 minutes, but I'm going to write out everything that I'm afraid of. And then I'll realize like there'll be maybe five to eight fears, but then I just start cycling. It's not a lot of stuff. It's just a few things that I think about a lot. And so every time I'd say, okay, if this worst case scenario happens, how will I survive? If this one happens, how would I survive? And I realized there's a path to survival and happiness. And you know, at the end of the day, you I might get the deal, I might not. They might like me, they might not. And I'll just say I will continue to breathe. I'm still going to live and I'll be able to

Exactly. And so once I start to see that really clearly, then I have less fears because I say no matter what happens in this situation, I will find a way to be okay. And that allows me to then be more present in front of the person and actually engage with the person rather than having to fight the demons of my fears in the middle of the conversation.

Right? So now it's just you and that person having the conversation. And I I tell people this all the time in negotiation, the person who has the most power is the one who's willing to walk away.

Yeah. That's just how this works. So no matter what's happening, that is the king of the the negotiation.

But when you're walking into these and you're trying to break things down in a way, everyone thinks that they go to the negotiation, they want to spit out everything they have first. The problem is the person on the other side has been recording and doing it in their head, playing this game, and they're trying to spit out everything they want first. So neither one of you are listening to each other. So going through these frameworks and figuring out, hey, what is the worst case scenario is at the end of the day, am I going to live? Is the person that I love the most still, they're going to love me? And you know, having that that worthiness conversation, which again creates the please your moment that you and I both have gone into of that that deprecating cycle. Um, which on a side note, you brought up again therapy.

Please go to therapy, everyone. It's, you know, it's the gift you give yourself. It's really really important. If not, you're going to hurt some people. when you're going through these, you you talked about an internal and an external framework. Walk me through that. How do you prepare internally because you can't do externally until you do internally? Walk me through.

Exactly. So, let let me start off with two quotes and then I'll break down the framework. So, two quotes, Da Vinci and Bruce Lee. So, Leonardo da Vinci said, "Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication." Bruce Lee said, "I don't fear the man who knows 10,000 kicks. I fear the man who has practiced one kick 10,000 times." and compassionate curiosity. This framework is your one kick. Because for me, having done over 1500 episodes of negotiate anything, negot learning from the best in the industry, teaching at Ohio State, teaching going working with like Google, Apple, NASA, Intel, all these big companies. I'm realizing, yeah, there are tons of different negotiation strategies, but for the majority of situations, you just need a simple mental model where you can flow and use the fun foundations, right? So with compassionate curiosity, it's a three-step framework that is intentionally simple but used in the

exact same way for internal and external negotiation. So step one is acknowledge and validate the emotions, feelings or beliefs. Um step two is get curious with compassion and step three is using joint problem solving. So if there's an emotional issue, you want to address it, label it and lower the emotional temperature of the room. Once we get to a productive state where we can actually think clearly, then we go to step two, which is getting curious with compassion. And then when we have enough information by asking those questions with a compassionate tone with the emotional temperatures at a manable place, now we just work with the other side, not against them to find a solution. So you see how a lot of the core principles of negotiation are just embedded in it. But it just helps you make better reads. So internally, I'm going to say, okay, I'm going to label what it is that I'm feeling. What am I

feeling? Let's say I'm feeling angry. Well, I'm going to go deeper because anger is often a secondary emotion, not a primary emotion. There's something else that's making you feel angry. Well, I feel disappointed. I feel disrespected. All right. Anything else? No. I think that encapsulates it. Great. So, then I go to number two with myself. So, I'm saying, all right, then I'm going to say, well, why do I feel that way? And I'm going to answer those questions until I get to the root of it. And as you're going through this, you start to calm down. And we can run through like the the psychology in in a second if you're interested. And then lastly with this third step joint problem solving we're saying okay I want to figure out what would satisfy me emotionally what should I and then what should I actually do in this scenario.

So now I'm actually thinking proactively and planning. And so that's how you would use internal compassionate curiosity before the conversation to gather yourself so you can be clear-headed and perform at your top level.

Absolutely. I I I love the last one is probably my favorite one in negotiation strategies. the when you do things joint, it's the only time and without getting political, uh it's the only time where I will really intensely jump into pronouns

because I will change how I'm interacting with a person. Instead of saying what do you want, like what do we want? Like what how how are we going to figure what is the best solution that works for us?

I will change that narrative. I also will change physically where I'm sitting. We talked about body language beforehand. I will hand them something and then I'm like, "Oh, wait. Is that the right one?" And I'll swing my chair around and so now I'm not against them when I'm talking to them. I'm next to them like, "Is this the right one?" and now I'm sitting to their left or their right side. So, it's kind of like when you're talking to someone, I know you're married, you sit down, you don't s go, what do you want for dinner? Horrible.

It's a disconnect. The minute you use you, even though this is the love of your life, the minute you use you, you're going to going to disconnect. So, being able to say, hey, what do we want to eat? What are we hungry for? That simple pronoun change changes the book. And that's joint. And people don't do that in negotiations. They're all like, oh, I want to have this, then if I want this, this is my I'm going to die on this mountain. Well, that thing, whatever that this is that you want,

they probably don't care about it. At the end of the day, it's probably not the thing that they want the most anyway.

So, it's if you do that, oh, well, I'm getting this. How do we make sure you get what you want as well? They're like, wait, what? Huh? I'm like, yeah, this how are we doing this? What is the best way to get there? And all of a sudden, the narrative changes and now you guys are buddies and you guys are friends and there's people don't do this on a high enough level because they get focused on what we're trying to avoid on this conversation, which is the strategies of negotiation, which go watch YouTube. If you want something, you want to start pivoting your mindset and showing up differently. I think that's something that you do that's unique to everyone else. And what are some of the things that you have brought that have created those changes that have been the most successful in negotiation? Because again, you've won some pretty high awards. I do love the fact that the negotiation event was in Canada. The

American one was in Canada. So that's kind of fun, but all right, cool. You guys went to Canada for the American award. Just that's weird. So can't do that anymore right now. Um, how do we how do we go into right now? What are some of the way things that you're like, okay, this are some of the things that I taught the Googles and these are some of the things that I taught that were really really valuable that people walked away going, "God, I didn't know that."

Yes. So, I think I think it comes down to this, man. Again, simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. So, it's never a question about whether or not compassionate curiosity applies. It's just a question of how you know so for me when I'm working with these folks who are negotiating hundreds of millions of dollars in their deal compassionate curiosity is the base and then let's say

but how they do that so I'm going to inter so here's an example here's an example so let's say it's a procurement situation and so they are trying to deal with a really difficult supplier single single supplier situation right and so then the supplier says hey I'm going to make this unilateral threat I'm going to demand um you know a unilateral unilateral price increase. This is a threat. It's going to happen. Sit here and take it or you're never going to produce your thing. Right? So now it's a situation where typically this is where it turns into a fight where we might say, "Okay, we're going to dig in our heels. We're going to lash back and now it becomes like a tugofwar where it's very very ugly or it's a situation where you might just go straight to your negotiation tactics, right? So okay, I'm going to re-anchor in this type of way.

I'm going to use bracketing and all these things, right?" But the thing is, we have not done a couple of things. Number one, we haven't taken the time to gather information. And number two, we haven't taken the time, most importantly, to create the conditions for persuasion.

So, think about it. If somebody is threatening you, they are not always operating from the strategic part of their brain. They're not using their prefrontal cortex and frontal lobe. They're often threatening you from a position of fear. And you use these rational tactics. You make these rational points to an irrational actor. you haven't taken the time to lower the emotional temperature of the room. So the psychology behind compassionate curiosity in this situation is that when you're very very emotional, you're using the amydala within the lyic system. So you're responding emotionally which is counterproductive to clear thinking. So it's an antagonistic relationship between the amygdala and the frontal lobe. Frontal lobe is rational thinking, clear thinking. Amydala is just emotions. You can't think clearly. So we need to walk them to rationality. So, I'm going to say, "Hey,

in this situation, what I'd say is this. So, hey, correct me if I'm wrong, Charles, but it sounds like something's changed on your end. Can you help me understand what's changed?" And so, then they're going to give some information or they might play it a little bit guarded. I'll say, "Okay, I'm still in step one at this point. There's still some barrier in this situation. It sounds like there's some pressures on your side, and I understand that the market's really tough. If you could help me to understand what these pressures are that are pushing you to do this, then I can help to work out a solution.

But if I don't have an understanding, then I can't just make a decision here. So now you start to lower that emotional temperature, gather that information, pull that out. Right? So in this conversation, the early conversation, I'm aiming right now. I'm not making any decisions, nothing at all. I'm just gathering information, managing the emotions, creating the this this connection, and then I'm going to gather the information, put a stop, and say, "Hey, listen. Can't make any decisions right now. Let me go back, talk to my team, and figure out what we can do." So step one in that really tough hostile negotiation is compassionate curiosity.

So you don't damage the relationship, but you also create the psychological safety necessary to extract information because negotiation is an information game. Now I can come back to the table with some of these highlevel strategies and I can put these highle strategies together within a really simple mental model for flow of communication because a lot of times what these really tactical negotiators end up doing is conversationally they speak tactic to tactic. They don't talk human to human. So by having compassionate curiosity as the tactical glue that keeps all of these together, you can create a connection and actually create the conditions for persuasion, which amplifies the likelihood of you actually using the tactics effectively because the person's now receptive.

I I think what was really powerful in there is you immediately said, "Hey, you know what? It seems like things have changed on your side. I I want to how how we make this happen." You automatically went from you to me back into us. And you immediately started working on rapport and relationships. and it was an attack. He's like, "Hey, I I can't make a decision right now." So now you that threat is gone. So they know no matter what happens.

You're not making a decision right now. I can't I don't have enough intel. However, what's going on? Things have changed. How do we make this work? Cuz I I obviously I need your stuff. How do we make this work? What's going on? What pressures are you running into? How do I help you out? Because now all of a sudden, you become part of their team. And we talk about those people all the time.

Um based on how old you are, I'll have to give two examples. Don't be Luke Skywalker. be Obi-Wan Kenobi or if you're a little bit younger, don't be don't be Harry Potter, be Hermione Granger. You want to be the best supporting actor with them. So, if you come and like, "No, look, I'm the most important person in your life." They're like, "Oh, that's cute. No, I'm not talking to any versus how do I help you? How do I help you get to your goal and by the way, I I'll do my goal as well." So, I thought that how you disarm them really, really easy going, "Hey, it seems like things have changed. How about what's going on?" So on and so forth. I think that's really really really powerful.

Thank you. I appreciate that. Absolutely. What are what are some of the things that you've learned that blew your mind when it came to negotiation? Like, oh my god, I can't believe. First of all, I can't believe that worked. Um, and I I know it's a question we didn't prepare for it, but it what because I I'd love to share one as well. What is the one that completely like I cannot believe this works. This is this is this is a hidden superpower.

Yeah. So, this it was it was mind-blowing, Charles, but also like frankly annoying. I didn't like it. I I always wanted I wanted to have this oh this revelation where I I create something really really that's like academic right compassionate curiosity is very very it's it's very powerful like I I believe in it too but I wanted something

takes time and skill to develop it though 100% right and a lot of discipline and but I wanted something that like sounded fancy

okay I have one that's not fancy when I give mine you'll be like okay so I was thinking to myself all right what are the what are the skills of the top negotiators like after when I'm having these interviews with them and they go down their methodologies and things like that and I push them to tell me a story.

Tell me a story of some of the toughest negotiations you've had. The thing that was surprising is that they stopped naming tactics.

They aren't saying, "Oh, I did this and it's that tact. I did this and this that tactic and citing books and stuff." They just relied on these core skills. So when the heat is on, the best professionals in the industry, they're not using these named tactics that they often teach in their methodologies. They're just they're flowing. How are they flowing? So, that led me to two discoveries. Discovery number one. You only need three core skills to be a good negotiator. Just three. Just three. And any tactic is really just a combination of those three used at the right time.

So, number one, become a better listener. Number two, become better at asking questions. And number three,

the first one, you almost got me. You almost got me. And and the third one is uh become better at managing emotions. All stated through continuous improvement because the thing is there's going to be something that leads to a performance gap in certain situations. Maybe you have a bias against somebody. Maybe somebody has a bias against you. Maybe it's a certain circumstance and where you just struggle to listen or ask questions cuz everybody's listened effectively. Everybody's asked questions effectively. The real power comes in recognizing in those certain circumstances where you're not good at it. So you can amplify the skill at nec when it's necessary. So, what is a way that someone right now can become a better listener? Because we hear about it all the time. Become a better listener and then I just make jokes about it, but what are the ways that you know you have tactally tactically

learned I should learn how to speak since it's a podcast. Um, how to become a better listener.

So, let me give you the ultimate listening tactic and then I will talk about how you can do that self-evaluation.

So, first I like to use the empathy loop. So, again, three steps. First step, this is going to blow your mind Charles. Step one is listen. Okay. Now, step two is summarize. And again, use your own words, but you could say, "Hey, correct me where I'm wrong, but it sounds like you're saying this. Um, tell me if I got this right, but it seems like you're trying to say this, right?" So, you're going to summarize this. Now, this is the third

words though, that's really important. If someone says, "I went to the store the other day. Did you go to the store the other day?" No. No. Reward it. So, because it's not regurgitating, paring back. So, this is something that people get wrong all the time.

They regurgitate the same words. Please don't do that. Please don't. And it sounds it sounds condescending, right? Because you and I have both been in conversations with our significant other and they're like, "What did you just What did I just say? You're not listening. What did I just say?" And then you like verbatim say what they just said. Do they feel good about that?

They do not feel hurt. That's That's why I have a very comfortable couch saying it's very comfortable.

And then with step number three, this is the magic because we don't advance in the conversation until they give us the green light. So I summarize and then I'll say, "Hey, was that a fair synopsis? Am I close on that? What did I miss?" Right? And so we don't go this is like a checkpoint in the conversation, right? And so this is really important because I don't we don't want to do this with everything that they say because then it becomes clinical and weird. But you do this at certain times like when you recognize that this is an a very important point. You recognize that their voice is elevating in volume that usually signals that they don't feel heard at the moment. So slowing down and doing that and then honestly man I do this sometimes where I don't know what to say next or I'm feeling flustered or I'm lost and I just kind of call this like a little timeout right so I'm just going to do that to slow down the pace

of the conversation so I can gather myself but that's the tool but I one of the things that I like to do or and I shouldn't say I like to do I don't like I don't like this at all what I I found is effective Charles is after certain conversations with people like family friends folks in my is saying, "How did I make you feel during that conversation?"

Mhm. Or asking them to rank your like rate your listening from 1 to 10. Man, that can be humbling sometimes.

So, those little tactics, those are the ones I want to get. Like, for example, you were talking about did I get everything? Did it resonate? Did you know did I do all that? I will sit there and one of the things that I will do is I'm like, "Oh, I think I'm missing something." I'm like, "Where where am I missing? Can you help me out here? Where did I miss? I think I and all of a sudden I've changed the power struggle here and putting them in a place of power. I'm showing over the vulnerability which is an illusion and absolute votability is complete strength. You understand? But I'm like I I think I got it all. I think I I swear I'm missing something. What am I? Help me out here. What am I missing? All of a sudden we're automatically working on a problem together because I want him to see me or he or she to see me as an ally because I'm like I just I know I'm missing something. I what am I what am I

miss? So that is one of those doing it in a way that feels exceptionally authentic but is is very much a tactic and but you have to it has to come from a source cuz even if I'm when I'm when I go to a restaurant when I go to a really nice hotel I know the matra or the waitress or whomever it is doesn't care about me very much. I am just part of their day. I know the game. They know the game. But if I know at the end of the day they actually authentically care a little bit, I'm going to interact with them differently versus if they're just using the tactic. So this is where you were talking about understanding the psychology and having that compassion and that empathy is really important.

There's a huge difference between empathy and apathy which people go look it up. There's a huge difference. Um I'm going to steal a second and explain mine which is not that not that

Yes, please. Please. Mine is FO. Do you know what FO is? It's not an acronym. It's the food. Yeah, I had it last night. I was like, this is based off psychology. I love this one. They took a lady and they male, female, didn't matter. They gave, in this case, it was a female. They gave her a board with questions and they walked up to people and they said, "Hey, do you mind can I ask you some questions?" And she had a board. She's like, "Okay, cool." She goes, "Well, can you hold this for me while I'm answering while I'm writing?" And they would hand a glass to the person and it would either be a warm cup or a cold cup, either an ice drink or whatever. And they did this and then they were like, "Hey," they would leave and she'd answer the question. and they walk away and then someone say, "Hey, we just hired Susie, whatever it is. What was your perception of her?" And they'll be like, "Oh, well, you know, she she felt really

cold and distant if they gave her the cold drink." And if they gave her the warm drink, they're like, "Warm and friendly and connected." Whenever I get in a negotiation and get stuck, I'm like, "Guys, I mean this without any offense. It's a medical thing. I need to eat. Uh there's this phenomenal FO place. Do you mind if we go have FO?" I go, I'm just starving. I can't think anymore. I will take them to go have FO. And I said, guys, the only rule is we're not talking about the deal. It's a non-negotiable. That's just we're going to eat FO for God's sakes. Every single time it happens, the team's like, "Okay, we're going to bring up the contract. We have to change the numbers. He's going to get more." Every single time I've used foe as my secret weapon, I've sat with them. We ate a warm thing. We feel connected. And when I deal with individuals who are extremely hostile, we're going to go have fo. And my team

knows it and they'll just clear reservations at the restaurant. As it goes in, they're like, "We're going to have fo suit." I'm like, "Oh." Even if I don't want fo because I'm putting it in there. Now, I've tried this with sushi. I get the exact opposite reaction.

Yeah. It breaks the connection. Smart, man. So, yeah. Both. And this is And what's cool about this because you you see how the psychology plays a real and that's with my methodology. I said, "Okay, cool. Yeah, I know the tactics. I'm a I'm a tactician in many ways, but I want to use that psychology degree to understand the psychology to teach people the psychology for two main reasons. Number one, it gives people the strength and resilience to utilize the tactics because now that they understand why the tactics work, they have more faith in the tactics because a lot of times the the difference between an expert and novice negotiator is just belief and resilience. A novice baseball

or exactly the the novice will say, "Okay, well, I tried this for 5 minutes. It didn't work." And the expert would be like, "Yeah, I'm just going to keep on using the psychology that works." I also think a a novice will will read a book and they'll just use tactics over and over and over and over and over again. And you know there there's phenomenal books there was like getting to yes or getting to no and what happens is they yes stack and it doesn't work because when everyone went out and they read the book they're like we're going to get to yes.

So all of a sudden it's like do you like air? You're like yes. Do you want your kids to have air? Yes. Do you want it to be clean? Yes. And all you want to do is say no because you have a yes stack. And then everyone's like well if it's not yes then it's got to be no. Well then now you no stack and that doesn't work. or hey, I've learned open-ended questions. Well, everyone's read the damn book. So, everyone is pushing that in. Which is why one of the reasons I want to bring on the podcast is you come in not from a tactic side. You're like, you're going to teach psychology because there's going to be time and a place with simple body language, which for those of you who are listening, no one can read micro expressions, get over yourself, it just doesn't happen. They happen too fast. There's a bunch of other stuff you have to put together.

But as you're going into it, you you focus more on the psychology side of it. So, I'd love it for you to kind of go through that side and say, "Listen, anybody can read tactics. just go spend $12, buy a book. Simple and easy. But if you want to learn the psychology so you can actually be effective and win the American award in a foreign country, which makes no sense to me. I did not realize that prior to this podcast, that is wild. It's like, I'm going to win the World Series, but we're never going to leave the United States.

You know how we do here in this country, man. We're not egotistical. Oh, and ignorant. I don't know what you're talking about. Um, yay. America. America. Um, when someone comes in and you're working with them and you want to teach them the psychology,

how do you do what does that process look like? I know you do it for a lot of people, how does do this?

Well, I think first of all, I've recognized uh to use a term from, you know, pharmarmacology here. It's I want to find the minimum effective dose cuz I recognize Charles that I can go really deep in the psychology. I think it's super super cool. And so I'll go to the level of depth that they want to take it. So most people they like as much as I don't like tactics, they want tactics. So I have to take the psychology and make it seem like a tactic, you know. So I'll I'll go over it really short quickly. So going back to the amydala, the lyic system and frontal lobe, just explaining why with the the labeling of emotions, why that works because a lot of times, especially when you're talking to people who like there's money on the line, I don't have time for feelings. I just want to talk about the deal terms.

The money is the only thing that matters. I'm like, why are you here? You're here because it doesn't work. So can we like level set on this here? So by breaking that down they can say okay now I see where this is. So I tell them it doesn't make sense to send a message to a person who is not psychologically ready to receive it. You know that brilliant thing that you just said doesn't work cuz they're not psychologically ready. You got to get them in the right mindset. So when you label the emotions the part of the brain that accepts or rejects the label is located in the frontal lobe. And so by activating the frontal lobe in that way that's what calms people down. Then when you think about um cortisol secretion, it takes that that is the stress hormone. It takes some time for that to work out of your system so you can think clearly like 10 15 minutes sometimes. So at the first quarter of the conversation

like you you should just be in relationship trust building mode to get the person to feel psychologically safe to so you can actually have the conversation. And the thing is too going back to what you were talking about with the yes stacking, this is a perfect example of why this tactical approach doesn't work because persuasion is at its best when it's imperceptible. So after negotiations with me, I don't want people to say, "Yeah,wami just like steamrolled me or overwhelmed me or anything like that." It's like, "No, I had a conversation with Kwami and after we chatted it out a bit, I I I decided to do this, right?" Because at the end of the day, if you can use compassionate curiosity to create a connection and create trust and lower the the the barrier and defenses, then you don't even need to really negotiate. You just have a conversation. It's, "Hey, Charles, me and you, we have the same

goal ultimately. let's try to figure out how to work this out. That feels better to everybody else. So, we're not taking it into a negotiation. We're just saying this is a natural conversation. And that's really what I want people to do. I want to make this more approachable because if we say to ourselves, "Oh, yeah. This these are these smoky backroom deals. You know, this is a really hard thing. Everybody's stressed out." No. There's one word I've never used in a negotiation.

Well, there are lots of words, but for the sake of this podcast, for this exercise, I was like, I can think about 15 different words right now.

I know. It's like, whoa, only one. What is the one word you refuse to use? Negotiation.

I never use it. I never say, "Hey, we're going to have this negotiation. Let's talk about the negotiation." I just say, "Hey, let's let's hop on the phone and chat. Hey, let's talk through this. Hey, when are you free to to to work through the numbers, whatever, because I know as soon as I say the word negotiation, now they're gearing up for war." No, we're just having a conversation. That's that's what it is at the end of the day. And and I think it's important to sit down and understand that certain ways of interacting won't work with other people because if you don't understand the psychology behind it, these tactics won't work with these people. Those tactics won't work with you. For my favorite example of this is Saturn. It used to be a car, not the planet. Um the car company called Saturn, their deal was we're going to go in, we're not going to negotiate any way, shape, or form. They're like this is great because

it fed to the people who were terrified to walk in the room and negotiate with someone. Well, you just paid a whole lot more money and they didn't care because their fear was more important to resolve that than I'm going to pay an extra 510k. But ultimately I went out of business for magnitude of reasons. So understanding that human beings react on a psychological level before they do anything else. And I can't sit there and say, "Hey, let's have foe." If I if you're afraid of me, we we talk about this all the time. Please don't do it.

But if I ask you to sing happy birthday, don't do it. You probably could sing happy birthday. If I put a live grenade in your hand, pulled out the pin and said, "Please sing happy birthday." You're not singing happy birthday to me because you're like, "Oh my god, there's a live grenade in my hand." This happens with negotiations. If you don't understand the psychology of a human being thing that's across from you, this this I'm not going to use that expression. This

ball of flesh that's in front of you. If you do not understand how to interact, connect, and get the cortisone levels to go down, I don't care about any tactics you've used ever. So, if someone comes in and they're trying to learn these psychological things from you,

Yeah. and they're like, where do they start? What what is a way that they could go into it? Is it is it books? Is it showing up at your house and knocking on the door at 4 in the morning? What is the way what is the way that people start learning these things? Because, you know, there's people I know who know these tactics better than anyone I've ever met and they can't close a deal and their negotiations are garbage because they haven't learned. For me the most important part was the psychology of it.

How do you how do they get that environment? How do they start that process? I think honestly and this is going to sound just very basic but because it is we have to first be curious because we can sell it right here Charles you and me we can talk about how important it is but it's not going to people aren't going to do anything unless they generate some genuine curiosity right so let's just spark that in people so the first place for us to start is just by paying attention so when I'm watching TV Whitney my love my wife she's very patient but when I'm watching TV and like we're trying to turn off our brains and watch some like reality TV shows trash or something like that. Um, and I would always be pausing it. I was like, you see, that's why that didn't work.

Did you see their facial expression change a little bit? Body language shifted. You see this have the same frustration.

Yeah. Y, oh, that's this. He's doing this. He's doing that. Yeah. Yep. But that's how you start, man. You start paying attention because you start to see, oh, wait a second. Like when you start to recognize body language, which is incredible, and start to actually think about it like a like an actual language, you realize people's bodies are screaming all the time, right? So you start to become better at people watching. Ooh, is that interaction going well? Is that interaction going poorly? Right? Why or why not? Okay, in my negotiations now, I'm going to think back to some of the ones that I had and I say, well, this tactic worked really well, just like the book said in this conversation, but the same tactic didn't just not work. Oh, it blew up.

Yeah. Like what is so what happened? Right. So we have now you start asking the right question. Now we start triggering the the the curiosity necessary. So start studying up on body language. Start studying up on personality. Start studying up on culture. Start studying up on emotional intelligence because again if we bring this back to compassionate curiosity now you're get putting yourself in a position to make better reads in the moment. Right?

I can connect with people and I can understand the things that are causing the barriers to connection. Right? So that that's the thing. And and think about this, Charles. Imagine which would you rather be? Would you rather have the all of the negotiation skills in the world and no trust or connection with the other person or all the trust and connection and zero negotiation skills?

I want all the ice cream. Is that is that a valid? He's elicized. You see, he's negotiating. He's negotiating the question. a master.

I I think you know because body language and one of the things that I do when I get curious because you and I for me this is fun I would do body language and influence and persuasion and there's a difference right there's influence persuasion and manipulation influence and persuasion is based on awareness manipulation is based on intent just the basic ball game that when you do this

but I will use it every time I travel I'll say okay well I see if I get upgraded let's find out let's play the game if if I'm out and I'm trying to get food let's see if I get a free dessert let's see because it's just it's just fun game. How do I influence? How do I persuade? How do I get to do these things? I There was a person that was in my life. We would sit there and we would play with body language because I'm curious what your favorite body language is. But

yeah, based on cultures, distance is important. Yeah. So, if you're from one side of the planet, your distance between each other is much much more intimate. If you're in the United States, it's farther apart. So, we would go to events and we just get a little bit closer to the person. And then with the game was see how far you can get the person out of the room. like, "Can you get them in the parking lot while they're talking and move them out?" I never won this game. My my the partner that I did this with, she would get them outside of the hotel. I was like, "How the hell?" She would walk them down the hall. I was like, "What the hell?" And we laugh because everything comes with that curiosity that you were talking about. Have fun.

Human beings are amazing to play with and they don't know what they're giving away because most people haven't studied it and you're giving people give away everything. And if you had a favorite body language, which which one would it be? I know it's hard. Yeah, I know. So, let me say let me do favorite in two ways. Entertainment and practicality. I'll give you the practical one. So, the the the body language becomes more truthful the further away we get from the head

because right we we're taught to lie young. Um your your aunt gives you these socks for your birthday and you open it up, you're like, "Oh, thanks." And then you're

these are amazing. Fix your face. Be happy. Right? You know, so people don't know how to lie with their feet. So, in networking situations, if I'm meeting somebody, I'm just going to, you know, I'm not going to stare at their feet like a creep, but I'm going but I'm going to be aware, okay, are their feet pointing toward the exit or they're pointing toward me. So, as soon as I start to see it, they let they want to go. All right, I'm going to wrap this up at a high point before it starts to go low and um, you know, get the contact, whatever, whatever the follow-up is. So, that's the practical one.

U, now we get into the fun one. So when you're out when you're out like in like at dinner, whatever, don't Yes, pay attention to your date. Be a good date, but then look at the other dates. And so what I want you to pay attention to is blocking behavior. So for instance, if you're um if you cross your arms, of course you want to focus on clusters of body language, not gestures and isolation. So it's going to be something else. But crossing your arms, closing your eyes for extended period of time. Um that'sam those are examples of blocking behavior cuz you're you're you're protecting yourself from the stimulus that's in front of you. But when you're out at dinner,

Mhm. this is where it becomes really fun because you start to block with the things around you. So my cup might have been to the side and now if I don't like you, I'm putting the cup between us, right? The the the car of of water. Okay, cool. Yeah, that was to the side. Now it's between us. And so it's like, "Hey man, look, look at the table setting over there. The flowers are in the middle. Everything this is not going well." You know? So that's one of the really subtle ones where they don't even realize they're giving it away. They just constantly build this blockade in front of the other person.

I will sit there. So the feet one I I you you literally hit on my two favorite ones. So the feet one, whenever I do an interview, they're all at glass tables.

It's non-negotiable. They're always at glass tables because I can see your feet. I have to see it's happy feet. This is why if I'm ever playing poker with someone, which I'm horrible at poker, uh I will sit there and I'll look at their feet. I'll know if they have a good hand cuz they get happy feet and they bounce.

Mhm. When I'm doing a negotiation or anything, I will physically at a when I'm across the table from someone, if they say something I don't like, I will drink out of my glass and then put it physically in between us.

Cuz even subconsciously, they don't know what I did, but they're just like, I screwed up. I don't know why I screwed up. And it will and I can literally change the conversation from that. So, remind me to give you about where you put your microphone during podcast. I was I wasn't going to give you a crap about it, but your microphone is right in the center of you. I was like, "What are you doing?"

Listen, no body language. What are you doing? I liked I like it to the side and my producer told me for sound quality, put it here. And then I kept on I'm super expressive. I kept on hitting it. So, I'm like, "Okay, if I keep it like right here now, I can still literally right. We talk about break literally every podcast." I mean, oh my god.

I know. Fun to call you out on it. All right. With that said, there's a lot we could go over.

There's an immense amount of things and I do believe that if they haven't gone into the psychology of it, how do they learn this from you? How do they track you down? How do how does someone sit there and say, "Okay, hey, you and Charles hanging out. That's adorable. Y'all look cute, but I need to learn some stuff." How do people track you? Where do they find you? Where's the best way to gain access to you? Do you give this act this information away? Do I have to go to Canada and watch you win an American award? What is that?

Yes. So check out negotiate anything.com and um we have the podcast negotiate anything of course but also we're putting on a series of virtual trainings. So we have one that is going to be for realtors but then we'll have another one that is just for difficult conversations in general and then a third one that is from called from people pleaser to confident communicator. So how to overcome those fears, fight those internal barriers so you can be the confident negotiator you always wanted to be. But the the best place is just check out negotiate anything.com if you want any of those resources um or want to work with us in other capacities. And then if you can manage to afford just $0, you can have access to over 1,500 episodes of of Negotiate Anything as well.

Love it. I mean, I really appreciate it. You and I could probably talk for another couple hours at this point. It just it is what it is. Going going in and coming from this angle, not as a tactic, but as hey, here's a psychology that you have to master first. Even if you don't negotiate, if you never which you negotiate in every aspect of your life almost all day.

If you don't do that, learning psychology changes how you interact with your friends, your family, your loved ones, complete strangers. It has gotten me walls walls of free upgrades on planes. Super fun. Ended up in first class because of it.

Fun fun thing. Learning the psychology without it truly is useless if you just learn the tactics first. So

go to the webinars. I really appreciate you coming on. Thank you so very much. Hey, my pleasure, brother. Appreciate you.

The best negotiators don't win through manipulation or mind games. They win by understanding what makes people tick. You can memorize every tactic in the book, but if you can't connect with the person across the table, you'll fail every

Questions about this episode

Who speaks in "Win Every Negotiation - Kwame Christian"?

Charles (last name not stated) (Host), Kwame Christian (Guest).

What is discussed in "Win Every Negotiation - Kwame Christian"?

In order: 0:00 American Negotiation Institute, Jeffrey 71st – Miller, Charles, CEO skill set, Negotiate Anything; 5:00 Jeffrey 71st – Miller, Charles, American Bar Association, American Negotiation Institute, Compassionate Curiosity; 10:00 Compassionate Curiosity, curiosity, Joint Problem Solving, Body Language; 15:00 Compassionate Curiosity, curiosity, Frontal Lobe, Jeffrey 71st – Miller, Charles; 20:00 Jeffrey 71st – Miller, Charles, Empathy Loop; 25:00 Apathy, Body Language, Frontal Lobe, Getting to No; 30:00 curiosity, Jeffrey 71st – Miller, Charles, Body Language, Compassionate Curiosity; 35:00 Body Language, curiosity, Compassionate Curiosity, Emotional Intelligence; 40:00 Negotiate Anything, Body Language, Jeffrey 71st – Miller, Charles.

What is mentioned in this The Proven Podcast episode?

35 people, works and ideas are mentioned, including Jeffrey 71st – Miller, Charles, curiosity, Compassionate Curiosity, Body Language, Negotiate Anything, Frontal Lobe. Each one on this page links to its own page with every episode that mentions it.

How long is "Win Every Negotiation - Kwame Christian"?

The episode runs 43 min; the transcript is about 10,018 words in 110 timestamped sections.

More from The Proven Podcast

About this transcript: the episode's spoken words as captioned on YouTube, split into timestamped sections. Reclip.Me locates every person, work and idea in the text, keeps the time it is first named, and quotes the words around it verbatim. Last updated November 19, 2025.